Knights & Knaves Alehouse

thedungeondelver wrote: "Armor classes go up now, because it makes sense!" (how does it make sense, it only makes sense to math cripples)

Because it's eliminates a table lookup unless you use THAC0.

thedungeondelver wrote:
"Three saving throw classes, because it makes sense!" (it only makes sense to illiterate and unimaginative people)

Because the original saving throw system was designed with the original set of spells, monsters, and magic items in mind. As things expanded it became non-intuitive to apply which saving throw. The designer of d20 rationalized it into three categories.

thedungeondelver wrote:
"A unified XP chart, because it makes sense!" (it only makes sense to sensitive snowflakes who throw around concepts like "fair" and "game balance" as rule edicts because everyone has to have "fun" as dictated by the rules).

Because for the vast majority of gamers over the years the drive has been towards increased customization of character through mechanics regardless of the complexity of the underlying rules system. The unified XP table is the foundation of the d20 mechanic that allows you to take a different class as you level. It is simple and easy to understand. When you level you can pick a new class or one of your existing ones.

My opinion is that putting down other RPGs or new editions is counter productive. I rather focus on what older edition D&D is rather than what it is not. It's ease of use, it proven flexibility, it's quick resolution of combat, quick character generation, abstract combat system that not totally divorced from reality are all strengths of AD&D 1st and other older editions.

Semaj Khan wrote: Me: "Well, no shit you pronounce it droh. I caught that, genius. But you're not pronouncing it that way in my game unless you want to be openly mocked in front of your friends... and there are no drow or droh in my game anyway, so pick another race. Not a gnome though."
Him (shocked): "Why can't I be a droh?"
Me: "They were all killed in a plague."
Him: "A what?"
Me: "A plague."

Him: "Do you mean a play-gyou?

EDIT - I now note that Wheggi made the same joke a full 4 posts and 3 1/2 hours before I did. Scooped!!!

AxeMental wrote:Imagine the PH cover with guys carrying laser rifles instead of swords around and an idol of some alien God, or maybe some crashed ship on a cool planet with weird purple and blue plants (hard cover by Tramp). And the same cover dress (in other words, it would have been three new books that had the same cover style and paper and black and white artwork as the 3 core books -nothing slick or soft). Yeah, maybe not "new" enough for some of us, but guess what, still very cool and more importantly, instantly recognizable as AD&D by AD&Ds huge customer base, just in space...

Players of 1E should have been taken by the hand by Master G and told "this is AD&D in outerspace and on alien planets, don't be scared, its very exciting". "look it looks the same, there is nothing new to have to learn rules wise, just a few new things about ships and how they travel, landing craft and such; oh and these alien races are like elves and dwarves, and these evil aliens are like monsters in AD&D".

I would have bought that in a heartbeat, and I'm sure my friends and I would have played it a lot.

robertsconley wrote: Because it's eliminates a table lookup unless you use THAC0.

Changing the direction that armour class improves in does not affect the need to do a table lookup, introducing a second reference number [e.g. THAC0 or Attack Bonus] that represents the level and class or hit dice of the attacker is what eliminates the need.

Well, I'm no expert on economics, wall street, inside trading, or all that scholarly stuff. But I will offer my answer to the thread title ("Why did TSR drop the ball so badly?") with a simple, catch-all conclusion that is in no way comprehensive; but may have something to do with the core of the issue.


The suits!

McDonald's resturants began with a simple idea (that In-n-Out still practices): simple menu, reasonable prices, low overhead. But then the big Mac decided it didn't want to snare the potential profits of folks that ate out about twice a month. It wanted to drive folks to eating out 24/7, and corner that market in the process. As a result, the menu got bloated, the corporation got bloated, the prices got bloated, and consumers got bloated (literally!) To compete with this fabricated market, other companies jumped in to get their share of the consumer. The result, as anyone can see that walks down a city block and is accosted by ads and billboards and fastfood franchises every 20 feet, is this f**ked up world created by commercialism.

Back to TSR.
I recommend to all to read up on the Blume brothers' and how they ran the corporation. Because I think it all started there. And I think the ultimate answer is, it "dropped the ball so badly" when it came under someone else's control than Gary's.

But that's just my opinion. Which ain't worth a pile of sh*t in the scheme of things.

Someone mentioned the BUCK ROGERSgame... heh, I loved the goofy show but the game? Don't bother. It looks like those blandy "official" 1989 D&D books (whiteness of very short menu; sterile comic book imagery; big fonts; text dross of talk for talks sake). I poured through that thing looking for the "android" with the phallus heads. I was like they couldn't put it in there for a gag? Totally "dickless" would really sum it up.

As an aside on the "drow", the majority of conversations I had with Gary were regarding the drow and plus we had a long conversation about the "trow" in Greyhawk where it leaned towards pronounciation and how "cow drow" sounded funny. However, it can be pronounced either way, I knew this before I played D&D and AY PRONUNSEEAYSHUN GYD TD #93 January 1985 by Mentzer just said it was either way. My experience with the term "drow pronounced as cow" is wide and varied. Although I choose to agree with Gary that it sounds ridiculous as cow but as he said its popularized as cow and easier to identify with. So there is no easy answer regarding how to say it in D&D. I'll keep saying "droh" though as I connotate "cow drow" with many glandularly impaired "revenge of the nerds" type players over the years.

I just go back to “Dark Elves,” because, no matter how it’s pronounced, “Drow” has unlikable connotations for me.

Falconer wrote:I just go back to “Dark Elves,” because, no matter how it’s pronounced, “Drow” has unlikable connotations for me.

This. I already ignore all those other "in-milieu" names that showed up in Gary's Greyhawk writing (dwur, olve, euroz, ilithid, etc.) and have no trouble relegating "drow" (however it's pronounced) to the same place. It may be what they call themselves, but that doesn't mean I have to call them that.

I haven't used drow since the 80's and it was very limited. I have had many dorkenheimer players come with "kick ass drow princesses" or "Frizzt Fo'urdens" since UA. But the same for the bard "class". In my eyes, a player with a bard character ceases to be human to me...

Just kidding!

BACK TO THE THREAD!

TSR losing it with the scifi angle for d&d...

Ward swooped in with his METAMORPHOSIS ALPHA (a codified Heinlein ORPHANS OF THE SKY/UNIVERSE and Aldiss NONSTOP/STARSHIP) meanwhile Gary just had his ass handed to him with WARRIORS OF MARS. On the nonTSR front, there was a lot SF crap going around or rather "landgrabbed". If tsr was going to go for a universal scifi game it would have to outshine all the simple Trek ripoffs in scope. The scope of STAR FRONTIERS was a foreshadowing of the "bland space" of later Buck Rogers and 90's Gamma World. In the meantime, GURPS and other blandy rpgs milled out the same gristmill of SF bland. In particular the worst perpetrators of "bland space" had nothing to do with TSR. FASA's Trek rpgs are hands down the worst crap I've ever seen. 2nd place for "bland space achiever" is the West End STAR WARS rpg. Holey moley, I fucking owned all of it and I could not do anything with it. AND I LOVED VADER BEFORE THE PREQUEL CRAP! Later Trek and Wars rpgs never escaped the scope of those? But why should they have to? They have droves of those driven to its original manifestations who will BE THERE for a long time. Unfortunately, those "firsters" didn't have the verve of the DMG and any chance for redemption...

Regarding pronunciation, I seem to recall a Dragon article or some such many moons ago that "officially" stated Drow rhymed with dough. Of course, it also said that Iuz was pronounced Eee-uz and not I-yuz, which was a non-starter in my campaign! We may have been hicks in the California sticks (and cut off from the rest of the gaming world) but we had our standards, dagnabit.

Welleran wrote:Regarding pronunciation, I seem to recall a Dragon article or some such many moons ago that "officially" stated Drow rhymed with dough. Of course, it also said that Iuz was pronounced Eee-uz and not I-yuz, which was a non-starter in my campaign! We may have been hicks in the California sticks (and cut off from the rest of the gaming world) but we had our standards, dagnabit.

Yes, thats what I was referring to AY PRONUNSEEAYSHUN GYD (see above it says COW or DOH) but its pronounced "cow" for mass D&D consumption. But don't count me in on that its drow as in foe.

I thought Iuz was supposed to be pronounced "Youze" like "youze guys" -- or was that only a joke?

T. Foster wrote:I thought Iuz was supposed to be pronounced "Youze" like "youze guys" -- or was that only a joke?

That's how I always pronounced it.

Let's try it:

"How many times do I gotta tel Iuz guys to stop callin' them dames, "broads"?"[/size]

I dunno....