Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Um, moving on ... the image with the plowshared tank in the "Last Years of David Sutherland" thread is wonderful, totally distinct from his other styles. It would find a comfortable home in any issue of say New Yorker, not just for its sentimental value but for overall completeness of idea and emotion. Does it have perspective issues? Does it appear naive? Yes. But have you looked at any Picassos lately?

The appeal of Sutherland's art is that it's trailblazing. The covers for Holmes Basic, the Monster Manual and DMG are technically flawed but still beautiful and unique expressions of the game and its potential, as existed in the minds of early players.

Flight Commander Solitude wrote:Um, moving on ... the image with the plowshared tank in the "Last Years of David Sutherland" thread is wonderful, totally distinct from his other styles. It would find a comfortable home in any issue of say New Yorker, not just for its sentimental value but for overall completeness of idea and emotion. Does it have perspective issues? Does it appear naive? Yes. But have you looked at any Picassos lately?

I will say that I like that piece and it does show growth in experience. It's definitely an improvement from his early TSR art. (For some reason, the way he draw legs almost remind me of Robert Crumb in that piece).

JRT wrote:Mike,

Out of curiosity, in cartography in general, did Dave or others have to deal with computers in any way for Cartography? I'm curious what the process was, as I was sincerely wondering what skills would be involved in that department.

It was all done by hand, all the work that I saw. Drawing skills, art skills, architecture know-how, straight-edge rulers, exacto knives, pencils, pens, and so on.

Sutherland's art was fairly technically proficient. JRT's attacks on Sutherland's style are simply his opinion on what he thinks good art is.
I think JRT misses completely what Sutherland conveyed in his artwork.

Magic, adventure, danger, and wonder are all captured in his work. A young 12 year old kid would love the DMG cover. Now look at, for ex. the second PHB cover. We get a pre-3e "technically proficient" old bishop (appears to be wearinga Catholic bishop's uniform) with a 30 foot, ridiculously long beard remeniscent of the post-1e artwork "technically proficient" characters holding 20 foot long swords and other assorted stupidity.

JRT----I think you either "get it" or you don't.

Ska wrote:Sutherland's art was fairly technically proficient. JRT's attacks on Sutherland's style are simply his opinion on what he thinks good art is.
I think JRT misses completely what Sutherland conveyed in his artwork.

I made no "attacks" on his artwork, all I said in the original post that started this is that I doubted WoTC had any obligation to interview him just because he was an artist, and it was strange to hold WoTC in contempt for that.

Whether or not you like the art on a subject level or not, there are some jarring flaws especially in the 1e MM cover that would be impossible to ignore by any trained artist. My point was not to be disrespectful, but simply point out in this day and age, it is doubtful Sutherland would ever be hired to do covers (unless someone was deliberately trying to do a retro-feel product) for ANY RPG project.

It's like doing an SF movie after Star Wars with old 50's special effects--it's not going to look good in today's marketplace unless there's a deliberate attempt to do a retro-feel.

I'm not telling people how to "feel", or saying that you're wrong for feeling that way. I just pointed out that fact.

Again JRT I think you do not quite get Suttherland or his art.

Of course there are still good special effects from older sci-fi movies that out-do some of today's features. Compare War of the Worls (1950s) to say, some of the horrible CGI from the latest movies...extremely catoonish looking.

There is nothing wrong if you do not "get it" (the feel and vibe of Suth. and his work when used to experience OADD) as I feel quite certain I woul dlikley not enjoy what you consider "fine fantasy art".

K&K is all about the old school Gygaxian way of things, from presentation to the rules and everything else in between. Art is a large part of the presentation. Sutherland got it.

It is likley many here (if not most) do enjoy Sutherland's work and know of where he was coming from when he created for AD&D. You disagree , great that is certainly your right.

I don't particularly like or get animae, and you may love it. Different tastes, but at this site the tastes run Gygaxian.

Again JRT I think you do not quite get Suttherland or his art.

It's not that I don't get it, my original point was that it would not be marketable in today's marketplace. The new standards developed by TSR and competition like White Wolf really changed the expectations for art.

K&K is all about the old school Gygaxian way of things, from presentation to the rules and everything else in between. Art is a large part of the presentation. Sutherland got it.

While I'm okay with that, I object to the use of the term Gygaxian to describe something that was contrary to what Gygax really did or felt. He is on record as stating his favorite artists were three of the people that are being criticized here as not being "old school".

Gary was a living breathing human being who has only been dead for less than 2 years, and there are plenty of interviews and lots of people around who knew him well. He is not meant to be a christ-like figure where we can form religious dogma around him. I really wish people would separate "Gygaxian" with "old school", as I don't believe one is totally equal to the other.

As a guy who was a friend of his for over 15 years, I want to make sure EGG is represented as accurately as possible, even if it's "warts and all", or messes with other's "belief systems", so to speak. Please be very careful with that term, okay.
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JRT wrote:

Again JRT I think you do not quite get Suttherland or his art.

It's not that I don't get it, my original point was that it would not be marketable in today's marketplace. The new standards developed by TSR and competition like White Wolf really changed the expectations for art.

I think the thread moved on from that a while ago. Since DCSIII couldn't find work in the current market, it's no leap to say that he couldn't find work in the current market. The thread's discussing whether that is a good thing or not, as a commentary on the current market.

It isn't that people aren't getting your point, it's that they've moved on.

K&K is all about the old school Gygaxian way of things, from presentation to the rules and everything else in between. Art is a large part of the presentation. Sutherland got it.

While I'm okay with that, I object to the use of the term Gygaxian to describe something that was contrary to what Gygax really did or felt. He is on record as stating his favorite artists were three of the people that are being criticized here as not being "old school".

In general, EGG is not treated as a Christ-like figure here; he's used to define a timeline which ends (roughly) at the time he left TSR. While it's interesting to know his favorite artists, his favorites aren't by any means foreclosed from criticism. Nor do his preferences define "old school," as Axe uses the term here.

Gary was a living breathing human being who has only been dead for less than 2 years, and there are plenty of interviews and lots of people around who knew him well. He is not meant to be a christ-like figure where we can form religious dogma around him. I really wish people would separate "Gygaxian" with "old school", as I don't believe one is totally equal to the other.

Exactly. That's why the site uses "old school" to modify the term "Gygaxian," and why people are criticizing EGG's art preferences. Note that you're the one (in your first quote) slipping from the use of "Gygaxian" into the use of "old school," as if they are synonyms. Axe isn't the one conflating the two terms, as evidenced by the fact that he's the one with the opinion that EGG's favorite artists might be Gygaxian, but aren't old school.

As a guy who was a friend of his for over 15 years, I want to make sure EGG is represented as accurately as possible, even if it's "warts and all", or messes with other's "belief systems", so to speak. Please be very careful with that term, okay.
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As noted above, "Gygaxian" is predominantly used as a time-notation here except in situations where people are talking about TSR history. In general, his TSR-era work is very highly respected by members on this board, but even that is subject to thought-out critique.

Again, in your post, you're the one equating "Gygaxian" with "old school." Axe is talking about old school, not "Gygaxian" - he makes the distinction, you fail to make the distinction and then you tell Axe he should make the distinction. And you follow up with a pocket lecture about the appropriate use of the term "Gygaxian" while enjoining people not to treat him like a Christ-like figure. Axe didn't claim that EGG preferred DCSIII to other artists, he claimed that EGG's preference wasn't "old school." That's about as far from treating EGG as a Christ-like figure as one can get, in the gaming world.

JRT wrote: As a guy who was a friend of his for over 15 years, I want to make sure EGG is represented as accurately as possible, even if it's "warts and all", or messes with other's "belief systems", so to speak. Please be very careful with that term, okay.
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Ahhhh .. I was waiting for that.

"Sonofabitch! Do you know who I am? I'm Moe Greene!"

Now, there's nothing wrong with being Moe Greene, but there's also nothing special about it either, in that, it doesn't add any weight to arguments against the focus of K&KA.

If it helps you JRT, think of Gygaxian Old School as a slice of Gygax, and not the whole enchilada. Places, such as DF, are more about the entire Gygax picture.

JRT wrote:As a guy who was a friend of his for over 15 years, I want to make sure EGG is represented as accurately as possible…Please be very careful with that term, okay.

Please be very careful with pomposity and condescension; they can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Now, there's nothing wrong with being Moe Greene, but there's also nothing special about it either, in that, it doesn't add any weight to arguments against the focus of K&KA.

My statement has nothing to do with the "focus of K&KA", but rather if Gygax is being discussed, you should talk to people who knew him, rather than just making random hypothesis out of thin air, especially when a statement is made about his opinions. Saying "I think the old-style art is better" is fine. Making hypothesis about whether or not Gary liked it, that DCS3 did everything at Gary's command, or whether or not the change in the art had to do with the Blumes and nothing to do with Gary is speculation, which needs to be challenged at times.

I mean, I don't care if you believe me (I'm not in the game industry and have nothing to plug, I sincerely want him represented accurately), but you should also ask around with other people who were alive and there at the time. Like Harlan Ellison said, you have a right to an informed opinion, not just an opinion. When it comes to a specific argument whether or not Gary liked the old art and hated the new art, you should at least do research--at least if you want to have a coherent argument.

I actually respect Zotster as he is being honest with opinons based on his own dealings and has enough knowledge about TSR history. I don't agree with all of his statements. But at least he was there, when many of us weren't.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

JRT wrote:As a guy who was a friend of his for over 15 years, I want to make sure EGG is represented as accurately as possible…Please be very careful with that term, okay.

Please be very careful with pomposity and condescension; they can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

That applies to all of us.

Priest waves hand in air with cross as possessed television repair man literally floats above sofa and yells, "May the power of Gygax compell thee."

JRT----I think you are roaming quite far off the reservation. Some members here, supposedly like you, knew EGG. Some more than others.

Knowing "the Eggster" (as only his very best freinds called him) does not mean one possesses superior knowledge as to what is or what is not old school.

Have no fears that those here are afraid to criticze Gygax out of some kind of (implied by you) quasi-religious feelings----no, this place and its members are quite Gygaxian in their astute questioning of all things old school and in their disregard of self-appointed experts.