Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Dude, sorry but the Harry Potter books are dumbed down. They are very, very easy reads for anyone over the age of about 8. They are very appealing for their simplistic language and themes. They surely resonate with kids of MS age, but their popularity is based on being incredibly easy to read.

I like the HP books and I've read them all. My wife teaches MS English and has seen kids who never read devour those books. And that's a wonderful thing (though she notes that those kids don't often become general readers, they just slip back to non-readers aside from the HP books). The HP books, IMO, are not something anyone should be pointing to as an example of intellectualism among MS students. Just the opposite, in fact.



Zot.----disagree. Kids reading HP books, and continuing to read each one as they came out, actually IS an example of children becoming more intellectual. Many kids continued to read after exposure to HP.

HP books, in fact, are not dumbed down. As an avid reader, IMO they are quite well structured, excellently written, and require a decent vocabulary to understand. I guess I am glad you are not the English teacher in the family.

I think its okay for kids to start with something "dumbed down."

I started with Dragonlance, after all, then went to Lord of the Rings.

OtspIII wrote:A lot of people in this thread are citing metalheads and stoners as evidence that D&D had the potential for more mainstream appeal. I can't speak for previous decades, so correct me if things have drastically changed, but these days metalheads are seen almost more as a sub-division of 'nerd' than anything else; the Ranger to the nerd Fighter.

Back in the glory days, was D&D genuinely somewhat mainstream, or just mainstream with outsiders?

Well, at the school I went to (mature suburb, teetering between working and middle class) even the "mainstream" would probably have been considered quasi-outsiders at the richer and more cliquish outer suburban schools. I can honestly say that for a couple years, though, even the "popular" (athletic/"preppy") boys (the girls not so much) had at least a casual interest in D&D. They didn't have full sets of rulebooks and subscriptions to Dragon and weren't going to cons and all that, but a lot of them had maybe 1 or 2 books (maybe just a module or Dragon issue or a rulebook like Fiend Folio) and characters on notebook paper rolled up in the cafeteria or during study hall.

This lasted, as I mentioned, from about 4th-6th grades. By 8th grade (and especially through high-school) it was only the intellectual wierdos (i.e. me and my friends) still playing rpgs, and even we weren't playing D&D -- we were playing Chaosium stuff (RQ, CoC, Stormbringer) and Traveller and Dangerous Journeys and GURPS -- ironically still chasing the mantle of more "mature" and "adult" games just like when we'd been playing AD&D as tweens. Actually, there were a few kids still playing D&D, but they were "dorks" (if I've got the taxonomy right -- the lack of fashion sense and poor social skills of a nerd but without the intelligence) and we wanted nothing to do with them and would cringe when they'd try to bond with us and tell us about their games (which is when we came up with the saying that "all gaming stories suck, except ours" ).

Gentlegamer wrote: I started with Dragonlance, after all, then went to the Lord of the Rings.

I read the latter immediately before the former, and to be honest, Dragonlance was a breath of fresh air to my early teen self. Interestingly, I had read books before that, but had forgotten that I ever did.

In grad school we were taught to write papers that were easily readable to the average person. That didn't mean they were imparting fluff, just the opposite. Simple language can still impart intellegent ideas and captivate readers. It can also be well constructed and be considered "good" (even better the convoluted text).

In the mid to late 80's we had a D&D club at our middle school (which was catholic btw). It was run by a teacher who had about 3 or 4 groups of students set up in different games (all AD&D). This was similiar to the chess club, but the membership was much more varied. Maybe the area I lived in isn't representative of the typical D&D "social" experience, but that's the way it was in my home town. As a matter of fact, it was this school that showed me how to play D&D and got me into it in the first place.

Asking someone to defend an assertion is not the same as telling someone they cannot state their opinion.

Piper wrote:Asking someone to defend an assertion is not the same as telling someone they cannot state their opinion.

Oh yeah? You think you can back that statement up?

DungeonDork wrote:

Piper wrote:Asking someone to defend an assertion is not the same as telling someone they cannot state their opinion.

Oh yeah? You think you can back that statement up?

(chuckle) No, I guess I'd better retract it, then.

What is that, the dancing dough-boy? I love it!

He tra-la-la's.

Zotster wrote:You know, despite all the side trails this topic has taken, my whole intent here was to voice my opinion that Zeb is a good guy, a hard worker, and someone who takes pride in his work. I worked with him for five years and never once saw him be snarky about someone, do anything underhanded behind anyone's back, or be mean or cruel to anyone. I did see him work very hard, care deeply about what he was doing, and worry about fans' feelings and opinions. Those were my experiences working alongside Zeb, every weekday for five years.

I think these are excellent reasons to stand up and defend someone. Too often dedicated, polite, zealous bosses don't get the credit they deserve. Good for you. Kudos.

northrundicandus wrote:Continuing the discussion of metalheads and D&D, I just finished reading a biography of the late Cliff Burton (of Metallica), To Live Is To Die. Both Burton and Kirk Hammett were new-comers to the band, not being founding members of the group. They were a bit outside of the tight friendship that Lars and James had. But both Cliff and Kirk clicked together as friends quickly, and one of the things that helped that relationship was when Kirk saw one of Cliff's AD&D books.

Fuckin' A! Cliff played AD&D too, back when it was cool.

Hell yeah!

Nazim wrote:

Zotster wrote:You know, despite all the side trails this topic has taken, my whole intent here was to voice my opinion that Zeb is a good guy, a hard worker, and someone who takes pride in his work. I worked with him for five years and never once saw him be snarky about someone, do anything underhanded behind anyone's back, or be mean or cruel to anyone. I did see him work very hard, care deeply about what he was doing, and worry about fans' feelings and opinions. Those were my experiences working alongside Zeb, every weekday for five years.

I think these are excellent reasons to stand up and defend someone. Too often dedicated, polite, zealous bosses don't get the credit they deserve. Good for you. Kudos.

That said, we're now on page 28 on the topic of a gentleman who's only contribution to the games that are the subjects of this particular forum is I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City. So, maybe it's time to give it a rest. Unless someone wants to talk about that most excellent adventure.

EDIT: Pardon me. I forgot about the A-series module. Which one was it?