What's up with the Zeb Cook hatred?

[Antonio Eleuteri]

Gene, it seems to me most (if not all) of the "baiting" was performed by you, so no sympathy here. I've seen you do it before, and gritted my teeth then, as now.

Bat, I guess I'm sort of with you on this one. Mike has asked several times for Gene's qualifications and/or background in order to be an expert and Gene comes back with comments that never actually address Mike's questions but instead belittle Mike for even asking. Gene is revered here but I'll be honest that I don't know his background, either. At least Mike can post a large list of gaming products that he's worked on (and many of which I own) and can show that he's been in the industry for years.

Overall, I find it kind of sad that Knights & Knaves Alehouse has been somewhat dormant for months (I check occasionally and not much seems to happen here) and then threads like this explode and posts fly almost faster than I can read them. Honestly, I had no idea that there was so much gamer-hatred here. I always hear about those evil morons at ENWorld and places like that, but I didn't expect to see so much of it here.

Is this supposed to be a "pro-Gary" site? I always thought it was an "old school gaming" site with focus on OD&D and 1E AD&D (which are my favorite editions, by the way) and knew that there was a lot of 3E hatred, but I always assumed that the 1E-2E guys stuck together.

Has the 2E hatred been a part of the K&K manifesto from the start? How could I miss that?

I totally agree with you Marv. I am quite new here, and I have been mostly lurking, but frankly, I had no idea this was supposed to be a "pro-Gary" site, other than for the gaming ideas and games he created.
I had lots of exchanges with Gary, he seemed to me a nice person; he even sent me postcards from his home in exchange for some italian playing cards I sent him. We also talked about topics other than games, and more often than not I did not agree with him, and some of his ideas I did not like at all.
Honestly, I do not care much about what happened at TSR, or how Gary behaved at the time. He was a man like everyone, not a saint, so he (like me and most everyone else) may have made errors in his life, and probably regretted them.
Now, it does not seem to me that Mike is being critic on Gary's game design credits, but he seems to be "in the know" for what happened at TSR back in the day, so he may have witnessed aspects of Gary's life which are not well known. If for no other reason that no one else here can confirm nor deny what he is saying (except by spitting bile like Mr. Weigel is doing), it could all be taken at least with the benefit of doubt.

The seemingly personal attacks on Mr. Cook that some here have shown, like they knew what happened or knew the men, do not deserve any attention. Either these people were there and knew the facts (and could prove it), or it would be better for them to shut up. They would make a better figure.

And honestly? A person who craps on another person's taste in matter of games is sincerely quite juvenile if not pathetic. I like 2e, and I like 1e, and I am 37 years old with a wife and son, and I guess I can decide if I like something and whether this something is fun for me. I do not need any supposed "expert" to tell me how to have fun, or worse yet, if I am having "wrongbadfun". If for no other reason than bring new players to the game, it would be wiser to not deride them. I recently met a group of young players (the oldest is 25), who only know how to play 3e and 4e. Granted, I do not like those games, but I have not told them that they were "wrong" or whatever. Instead, I invited them to play with me with AD&D 1e. I showed them that there are other games out there, that the D&D of the past was quite different from what they use to play, and that the experience of playing is quite different. And you know what? They liked it! I do not think I would have got the same answer if I had crapped on their game, or told them that their games sucked or whatever. If AD&D 1e must be remembered as a good game, those who introduce it should know better than being dismissive of other's tastes.

Antonio

[TRP]

OMG!!!!

The regulars at K&KA actually liked and/or respected Gary! Run for you lives!!!




ETA: There are many, many, many, many places on the internet where 2e is discussed and even liked. K&KA is not one of those places. So, most regulars here don't like 2e? Big deal. I don't see how telling someone that they play a crappy game is any different than telling someone that they drive a crappy car. Grow a thicker skin and laugh it off over a beer. Sheesh, my wife isn't even that sensitive.

[francisca]

OMG!!!!

The regulars at K&KA actually liked and/or respected Gary! Run for you lives!!!




ETA: There are many, many, many, many places on the internet where 2e is discussed and even liked. K&KA is not one of those places. So, most regulars here don't like 2e? Big deal. I don't see how telling someone that they play a crappy game is any different than telling someone that they drive a crappy car. Grow a thicker skin and laugh it off over a beer. Sheesh, my wife isn't even that sensitive.

I don't even think it is that bad. What "expert" shit in Antonio's cornflakes and told him 2e sucks and he should quit playing it? I don't think anybody did.

Quit your whining, Antonio. You're 37 with a wife and kid for goodness sake.

[JCBoney]

I'd like to interject two things:

One: there's probably more to the whole Gygax/TSR story than any one person here knows. Conversely, there are probably those here who know more than they're letting on. Am I privy to any of it? No, but knowing Gene Weigel, I suspect I'm right.

Two: simply put, 2e was for pussies. Yeah, Mike, I know you were hip deep in developing 2e, and you can take this however you want because I owe you nothing, while you owe me the money I spent on shitty products put out by TSR during those years. No offense... I'm sure you're the type of guy I could sit down and have a beer with in the Obama/Gates/Crowley sort of way.

TSR took all the "controversial parts" out of the game in order to increase sales against the imbecilic onslaught of bible thumpers and paranoiacs. It was done to make more sales for less work and less quality, and it was done to get the stink of Gary Gygax washed off. The result was almost a decade of products fit only for toilet paper and a new generation of players who personally creep me out. The complete mishandling of AD&D as an intellectual property in that time period directly led to the collapse of TSR, the purchase by WOTC, and the creation of 3e.

You're responsible for that, Mike. you, David Cook, and the rest of the Charlie Foxtrot team that took a good game and watered it down for the masses and to please your corporate bosses.

Was Gygax a good guy, flaming asshole, or all points inbetween? Couldn't care less. I saw bits of all of that in him from time to time. Know me long enough, and you will see the same in me.

[JCBoney]

Oh, an Antonio, I've never read a post of yours before so a belated welcome to the Alehouse from me. You're going to find that people here will say what they please; either counter it or stay silent, but gauging their worthiness for saying it is not good poker in these parts. If you persist, then take a moment to change into your asbestos underwear.

[SirAllen]

There are many, many, many, many places on the internet where 2e is discussed and even liked. K&KA is not one of those places.

Well said. It's one of the fun things about K&KA. Nobody ever starts posts with "Well, in 2e it's done this way..."

I don't care if people like or play 2E. I just don't want to read about it. I think it sucks.

[T. Foster]

Note: since Gene has indicated he doesn't want to participate in this discussion any further and everybody has had a chance to get a "last word" jab in against him, please desist from any further attacks against him. Gene didn't want to be involved in this thread -- he told me some stuff in confidence a while ago that I made oblique reference to in another thread (which I probably shouldn't have) which had the unintended consequence of dragging him into this public debate without his consent. While he was here and willing to argue about it arguing back was fair, but now that he's decided he no longer wants to, throwing mud after him isn't cool and won't be tolerated.

Gene is a long-time and valued member of the K&K community (or "clique," if you will ), and I've considered him a good internet-friend long before this site existed. I'll admit he didn't make his case well in this thread, and I suspect that he could've made it stronger had he chosen to -- that he chose not to was his decision, and since he didn't invite this controversy (I dragged him into it) I'm not going to blame him for that. And neither are any of the rest of you, at least any further than you already have upthread.

[Random]

I don't see how telling someone that they play a crappy game is any different than telling someone that they drive a crappy car. Grow a thicker skin and laugh it off over a beer.

I have to be with TRP on this one. I have no more problem telling people I think their games suck than I do telling them their music sucks, and my gosh there are a lot of people listening to shitty music out there!

---

I can somewhat relate to the 2e hatred going on here because I experienced these bland products as my gateway into the hobby. I bought (well, begged for) that (1995 IIRC) Introduction to AD&D boxed set after seeing an advertisement for AD&D, and did not buy another RPG product for years. Being a kid, I couldn't discipline myself to save money to buy the core books, and guess what, TSR apparently killed the Dungeons & Dragons line, even though a more thorough basic set would have been fantastic for me (the one I had was fairly neutered as far as content), as well as a nice expert set to round out the reasonable levels for play.

So, instead of a $20 complete introductory game, plus perhaps an additional $20 for a later expert set to complete it, I got a $20 piece of shit with an insert telling me I need to go buy $80 worth of other stuff to even have the whole game. I was 8 years old! Damn you people!

Yes, my imagination and creativity ruled the day, but as it was, that set had only the most bare-bones content, basically only what was required for the packaged pseudo-modules (which weren't all that outstanding in retrospect). For example, the only dragons statistics present were a "hatchling" red dragon and an ancient (IIRC) copper dragon. I had to make up my own new spells, monsters, magic items, dungeons, etc. (pretty much had to rewrite and expand the entire game), which doesn't sound all that bad from an adult viewpoint, but it really pisses little kids off when there's a kick-ass eyeball monster (a beholder, but who knew?) on the cover but no stats for it.

On the upside, I (heresy, I know) loved the artwork present (which was similar to the revised 2E core book art), especially the graphic with the characters falling into the pit trap to certain death, that terrified look on the elf's face.

I suppose I'm just different in that I have no harsh feelings towards the guys who put that crap together. AD&D was simple worse than it used to be; I only wish I found out sooner. It wasn't until I stumbled upon this website (probably early last year or late 2007, I think, but I lurked) that it even occurred to me that a 2nd edition implies there was a First edition! Now it's what I enjoy (although I do appreciate the regular Dungeons & Dragons game as well).

---

Sorry for the rant, but I was hoping my backwards perspective might be somewhat interesting, as it's a "that stuff sucked and who is this Gary fellow... oh he co-created the hobby, cool" perspective rather than a "that stuff sucked and how could you do that to Gary, you jackasses" perspective. I had never even heard of Gary Gygax until a couple of years ago. That's the fucking problem with 2nd Edition AD&D. Gary's not even listed in the credits!

[Antonio Eleuteri]

OMG!!!!

The regulars at K&KA actually liked and/or respected Gary! Run for you lives!!!




ETA: There are many, many, many, many places on the internet where 2e is discussed and even liked. K&KA is not one of those places. So, most regulars here don't like 2e? Big deal. I don't see how telling someone that they play a crappy game is any different than telling someone that they drive a crappy car. Grow a thicker skin and laugh it off over a beer. Sheesh, my wife isn't even that sensitive.

I don't even think it is that bad. What "expert" shit in Antonio's cornflakes and told him 2e sucks and he should quit playing it? I don't think anybody did.

Quit your whining, Antonio. You're 37 with a wife and kid for goodness sake.

Nah, I will make a earthy laugh! And "'a faccia toia", as we say in Italy
It's just the sort of gamer hate that Marv was referring to. I don't care whether people crap on my game, but there may be people who would crap on 1e in return. What would happen here if this happened? Would all of you "grown up" guys show a thick skin? I think I know the answer, feel free to correct me.

[JCBoney]

Can't speak for everyone, but my guess is "yes."

[francisca]

there may be people who would crap on 1e in return. What would happen here if this happened? Would all of you "grown up" guys show a thick skin?

I'd ignore it. That's nothing new, and has been going on at many other sites for years.

If I were a mod, I'd point out this an OD&D and 1st edition AD&D site and tell them to get lost.

[Random]

If I were a mod, I'd point out this an OD&D and 1st edition AD&D site and tell them to get lost.

Last time I checked, you didn't have to be a moderator to tell people the focus of a site and to piss off if they don't like it.

[TRP]

I don't care whether people crap on my game, but there may be people who would crap on 1e in return. What would happen here if this happened? Would all of you "grown up" guys show a thick skin? I think I know the answer, feel free to correct me.

LOL!!!

Are you kidding me?

Crapping all over AD&D 1st Edition is practically a world-wide sport!!!

So, you found maybe one of the two places* on the entire intarwebz where 1e bashing meets with full frontal assault retaliation, and you're concerned about a few snarky remarks about 2e?

Excuse me. I just pee'd my pants laughing so hard.

* Here's the other: http://www.thedelversdungeon.com/

[blackprinceofmuncie]

It's just the sort of gamer hate that Marv was referring to. I don't care whether people crap on my game, but there may be people who would crap on 1e in return. What would happen here if this happened? Would all of you "grown up" guys show a thick skin? I think I know the answer, feel free to correct me.

My experience is that the people you'd expect to show a thick skin either don't respond or calmly tell the poster this isn't the place for them; and the people you'd expect to fly off the handle and respond emotionally respond by getting personally insulting and calling the poster a troll.

And yes, some of those who would fly off the handle are also the first to tell others to grow a thick skin. K&K is no more immune to the hypocrisy that infects most of the internet than anywhere else.

[simrion]

Well I for one don't hate on Zeb Cook and I have nothing but respect for Gary and what he created (and my current gaming choices are 1EAD&D and Castles & Crusades...despite the 3.x taint ...and I'm currently running both!) I kind of missed the 2E explosion as it were picking up a majority of the books I currently own on the cheap in the early 1990's. Played some (preference of one of my Group who DM's, if I get a chance to play I'm NOT going to complain that it is 2E.) I was certainly NOT a fan of the nerfing of the terminology in the game however such as the good old ad for the return of Greyhawk

"What the hell is a Baatezu?" I still can't tell the Baatezu apart from the T'anari - Demons and Devils worked perfectly fine.

I admit I've found this discussion entertaining in a vicarious manner and I believe one of the earlier posters said it best "Gary and Co. were a bunch of avid gamers trying to make a dollar by creating and promoting a hobby they loved." Too bad he didn't appear to have much business accumen, that the stars and planets aligned against the man in the way of unscrupulous business partners that didn't seem to "share the gamer passion" so much as a passion for silver and gold...just too bad all around that we missed out on what ever future vision Gary had for the game. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the game by playing any chance I get. Just hope an pray somehow, somewhere Gary's original Castle Greyhawk notes are unearthed and eventually made available to the fans.