Great article about Jack Vance in NY Times magazine

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T. Foster
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Great article about Jack Vance in NY Times magazine

Post by T. Foster »

Thanks to James at Grognardia for pointing this out:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magaz ... .html?_r=1

My only complaint is that the article seems to focus too much on the Dying Earth stories in comparison to his (IMO better) sf work like Planet of Adventure, The Demon Princes, Alastor, etc. I suppose that's because of the upcoming "Dying Earth Tribute" volume of Vance pastiche/tribute stories by contemporary fantasy authors that's being released and seems to have been the primary impetus behind this article.

I haven't read a ton of Vance books (only about a dozen -- I have yet to read, for instance, any of the Lyonesse, Durdane, or Chronicle of Cadwal series or some of his more famous stand-alone novels like The Languages of Pao or The Dragon Masters) but everything I have read has been exceptional. IMO Vance is not only one of the all-time greatest writers of sf and fantasy, but fully deserving of the sort of mainstream/non-genre attention given to the likes of Lovecraft and Philip K. Dick. Given his age it's inevitable, alas, that he's not going to be with us much longer. It's gratifying then, to see him getting at least a bit of the mainstream attention he so richly deserves while he's still around to appreciate (or at least hear about) it :)
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Post by Stonegiant »

That really is a great story and sadly magnifies one of the great failings of my life....I have never read Vance.....This may kill any old school cred I have to admit this. Unfortunatley our library has none and the used bookstores never seem to have him either.
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Post by Chainsaw »

NY Times wrote:During our conversation he had already summarily dismissed several people, including two celebrated science-fiction writers I grew up reading, as a jackass or a show-off.
Anyone want to hazard a guess here?

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Post by Wheggi »

Chainsaw wrote:
NY Times wrote:During our conversation he had already summarily dismissed several people, including two celebrated science-fiction writers I grew up reading, as a jackass or a show-off.
Anyone want to hazard a guess here?
Whenever I see the words "celebrated science-fiction writers" and "jackass" in the same sentance, I scream out "Harlan Ellison!" by default. 'Cause he is.

Wouldn't be Niven or Parnelle: both of them are good guys. Bradbury's pretty cool as well so I doubt it's him, and I doubt it was Asimov (but who knows?). I dunno . . . possibly one of the S&S guys (Lin Carter, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Lieber, et al.)? Or Frank Herbert? Or PKD? Interesting mystery to speculate on.

EDIT: just read his wiki, and according to it (ahem) the Vances and Herberts were very close friends. So it would seem that the Dying Earth and the world of Arakas were not at war.

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Post by JCBoney »

I read this over at the Delver's Dungeon and enjoyed it.

I doubted it was Frank Herbert either, based on what I've read about him. Ellison is the default guess, of course.

Also, while not saying he's a bad guy, Asimov tended to be a show off at cons, and in many ways is over-rated, so I'm throwing his name in the hat for a possible.
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Post by Wheggi »

You're right about Asimov, of course. He did have a bit of an ego on him, and I was just mis-remembering.

Wasn't Arthur C. Clarke a bit dicky as well? Never met him.

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Post by JCBoney »

I never met Asimov. I'm basing my observation on the comments made by Gene Roddenberry, back in 1966 when he screened the two Star Trek pilots at a scifi con.

During the first one, some jackass was in the back talking loudly and holding court with his cronies. Roddenberry went back there and asked him to shut up, and the guy did so. An attendant told him "congratulations, you just insulted Isaac Asimov."

Afterwards, Asimov apologized for his behavior, and they became good friends.

From that story, I tend to think Asimov fed pretty heavily on his celebrity status at sci fi cons. That's all I'm going on. Anyone with contradictory evidence is welcome to prove me wrong.
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Post by T. Foster »

Asimov's "introductions" to the two Vance stories appearing in The Hugo Winners, vol. 2 could add some fuel to that speculation. In the first one Asimov talks about how his method when introducing these stories is not to talk about the story (which, as an award-winner, can be assumed to be good, and which is about to be read anyway) but instead about the authors, almost all of whom he knows or has corresponded with so the chances of the anthology including an author he doesn't know and hasn't corresponded with is very small. He then mentions as an aside that he doesn't know and has never corresponded with Jack Vance, but that's okay because he'll get another crack at him later in the book.

For the second story we get this:
Asimov in The Hugo Winners, vol. 2 wrote:Now I must deal with Jack again.

Knowing that I didn't know Jack Vance and that he would appear twice, I was in a terrible quandary. I had to find out something about him; something significant. It was no use determining that he lived in California; and that he was about my age and shape (which is very good in itself, of course). I wanted something more.

What to do? So I picked up my phone and called Robert Silverberg. It meant I would interrupt him at work since his schedule is something like mine but I would be doing him a favor because I understand he fights with his typewriter. (It keeps shrieking at him because it has sensitive keys and he has cold fingers.)

"Tell me about Jack Vance, Bob," I said.

So he did, and I listened and listened, and finally Bob said, "He's strangely uncommunicative in a way. That is, he loves to talk shop, but when I asked him whether he was influenced more by Kafka or by Dunsany, he changed the subject."

I was delighted, for right then I knew that Jack Vance was an all-right guy. I hate those writers who have been terribly influenced by Lord Kafka or Franz Dunsany - big show-offs. Personally, I was influenced by guys like Nat Schachner and Clifford Simak and John W. Campbell, Jr.

Back in the 1930s, you see, I was reading science fiction. A fellow with science fiction writing ambitions should read science fiction. I didn't waste my time reading Proust and Tolstoy and all them other highfalution Greeks.

And neither, I'll bet, did Jack Vance. Good boy, Jack! It's you and I against the world.
It's easy enough to surmise that Jack might not have been particularly thrilled by these twin "introductions," and might see reason decades later to describe ol' Isaac to an interviewer as a jackass or show-off.

As for the other one, I really have no idea, and no way of guessing. Ellison is of course a natural (seeing as how he is both a jackass and a show-off). Heinlein could be another, since both his worldview and writing style seem pretty distant from Vance's (which, in the Heinleinian scheme of the universe must mean that Vance is objectively wrong on both counts and therefore deserving of scorn and contempt). I don't know enough about the reputed personalities of other SF luminaries to even be able to make guesses.
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Post by Chainsaw »

Stonegiant wrote:I have never read Vance.....This may kill any old school cred I have to admit this.
I'm in the same boat. Anyone have an opinion on what to read first?

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Post by T. Foster »

For a D&D fan The Eyes of the Overworld is probably the ideal place to start. It's actually the second book in the "Dying Earth" series, but whereas the first volume (The Dying Earth) is a collection of unconnected stories that are more static and cerebral -- seemingly highly influenced by Clark Ashton Smith's "Zothique" cycle -- Eyes is more straightforward and adventure-oriented, concerning the wanderings and (mis)adventures of Cugel the Clever, a character so rascally, venal, dishonest, and generally despicable that I'm not sure he has enough heroic qualities to even qualify as an antihero, and IMO at least makes for an more accessible and immediately entertaining read (though if you like it you'll eventually want to go back and read the first book as well).

Outside of that, I'd very highly recommend the 4-in-1 omnibus edition of Planet of Adventure as being both quintessentially Vance and a very good and accessible place to start. These four books (originally published in the late 60s and each less than 200pp in their original incarnations) concern the adventures of Earthman Adam Reith after he crash-lands on the unexplored alien planet of Tschai and must deal with the four different intelligent races that inhabit it, along with the variety of human slaves who serve them, in his attempts to escape. The basic premise is "planetary romance" adventure in the mold of Burroughs' Mars and it delivers on that level, but there's also a lot more going on beneath the surface (and even on the surface, considering Vance's brilliant use of language and ever-present wit).

The Demon Princes series, concerning Kirth Gersen's lifelong quest for revenge against the gang of five criminals who destroyed and enslaved his home planet, is also extraordinarily good, probably even better than the two mentioned above, but IMO is better suited to someone who's already been introduced to Vance and become accustomed to his style, rather than as a starting point.
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Post by Chainsaw »

That's very helpful - thanks, Trent!

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Post by Melan »

Fun fact: Jack Vance, by his own admission, has not been reading science fiction since about the late 50s. He also seems to be really contemptuous of "gadget stories", i.e. science fiction whose plot hangs around some artificial technological problem. I must say I like that; I have been disillusioned by the whudunnit-style SF which typifies Asimov and many of his contemporaries, and found Vance's mature works - where technology is a backdrop or a stylistic element - much more satisfying.

I will second T. Foster's recommendations, and suggest reading Vance in the order provided. I rank the Demon Princes the highest, but agree that it is best enjoyed after you have already had some experience with other of Jack's books. Emphyrio (a melancholy coming-of-age story) is also of note, and so is Wyst: Alastor 1713 (a melancholy satire on collectivism and hedonist societies); in fact, I have enjoyed every Vance book I have read, with the possible exception of the Lyoness trilogy - whic, admittedly, was more due to my distaste of high fantasy and probably the substandard translation than the work's intristic merits.
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Post by Melan »

And since no Vance thread is complete without a few quotes, here are some of my favourites:
"Xavier Scolcamp, Over-Centennial Fellow of the Institute, in a discursive mood, discusses Institute attitudes with a journalist:
"Humanity is old, civilization new: the mesh of cogs is by no means smooth - and this is as it should be. Never should a man enter a building of glass and metal, or a spaceship, or a submarine, without a small shock of astonishment; never should he avoid an act of passion without a small sense of effort. ... We of the Institute receive an intensive historical inculcation; we know the men of the past, and we have projected dozens of possible future variations, which, without exception, are repulsive. Man, as he exists now, with all his faults and vices, a thousand gloriously irrational compromises between two thousand sterile absolutes - is optimal. Or so it seems to us who are men."
(Demon Princes, Vol. 2: The Killing Machine, 1964)
"At noon she arrived at the Trieste Central Depot, which served New Trieste, north of the Carso, one of the few remaining urban areas still dominated by the Technic Paradigms: a checkerboard of of concrete and glass shapes, rectilinear and identical save for the numbers on the flat roofs. The 'Technic Paradigms' had been applied to New Trieste, and thereafter rejected almost everywhere else on Earth in favor of construction less intellectual and less brutally efficient.

From the Central Depot Wayness rode by subway ten miles south to the Old Trieste Station: a structure of black iron webbing and opal-green glass covering five acres of transit terminals, markets, cafés and a cheerful animation of porters, school children, wandering musicians, persons arriving and departing. At a kiosk Wayness bought a map, which she took to a café by a pair of flower stalls. While she lunched on mussels in a bright red sauce redolent of garlic and rosemary, she studied the map."
(Ecce and Old Earth, 1991)
And one of the trademark dialogs (longish):
"Sunje inspected Glawen sidelong. "Bureau B? What a fascinating line of work! As I undestand it, you patrol the shores and guard the Conservancy from attack?"
"That is a fair statement", said Glawen. "Although for a fact we have other duties as well."
"Would you think me impertinent if I asked to see your gun?"
Glawen smiled politely. "You are at a misapprehension. We handle guns only when out on patrol."
"Oh, what a shame! I have long wondered whether the patrollers truly file notches for every Yip they had killed."
Again Glawen smiled. "I'd be filing every minute of my spare time! My business is killing Yips, not keeping a head count, which never would be wholly exact. When I set fire to a crowded boatload, I can only estimate the casualties. In any event, it's a useless statistic, since for every Yip I kill, two or three step forward. The sport has lost its zest."
Milo asked: "Could you possibly take Sunje out on a patrol and let her shoot a few Yips on her own?"
"I don't see why not." Glawen turned to Sunje. "Mind you, I can't guarantee any sport. Sometimes days or even weeks go by without a single honest shot."
Julian looked at Sunje. "What do you say? Here's your chance, if you're ready for it."
Sunje stalked across the room and flung herself into a chair. "I think you're all rather vapid."
Milo told Glawen: "Perhaps I should mention that Sunje endorses the program of the New Humanists, who are in turn the cutting edge of the Peefers."
"LPFers, if you don't mind."
"These are terms and phrases from the nomenclature of Naturalist politics, Milo explained to Glawen. L, P and F stand for 'Life', 'Peace' and 'Freedom'. Julian is an ardent member of the group."
Glawen said: "With such a slogan, how dare anyone raise his voice in opposition?"
"It's generally agreed that the slogan is the best part of the program", said Milo.
Julian ignored Milo's remark: "Against all sanity, opponents to the great LPF movement not only exist but flourish like noxious weeds."
"These are evidently the 'DWSers': the advocates of 'Death', 'War' and 'Slavery'. Am I right?" said Glawen.
"They are clever and devious!" said Julian. "Never would they flaunt their true colors so brazenly. Instead they call themselves Chartists and think to hold the high ground by waving funny old documents at us."
Milo said: "These documents are known as the Articles of the Naturalist Society and are otherwise known as the Charter. Julian, why don't you read them someday?"
Julian made a debonair gesture. "Far easier to argue from ignorance."
"All this comes as a shock to me," said Glawen. "At the Station we consider the Charter to be the First Law of the Universe. Anyone who thinks otherwise must be a Yip, a madman or the Devil himself."
(Araminta Station, 1988)
"D&D is the ultimate right wing wet dream. A bunch of guys who are better than your average joe set out into the middle of nowhere where they murder and kill everything they come across in order to stockpile gold and elaborate magical bling. There are no taxes, no state and any poor people that get in your way get their village burned to the ground. It's like Ayn Rand on PCP." - Mr. Analytical

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Post by geneweigel »

I've said this dozens of times before but before introduced to "Cugel" in the early 90's we (the groups that I played with) had emulated the style almost exactly and I hypothesized that while everyone that I knew strangely never read it that it must have come into play through some kind of "gamer osmosis" via "contagion magic" of some kind! We had it but after I read the Cugel stories my enthusiasm for emulating that evasive dialogue waned immensely as it no longer seemed what I thought it was: a unique quirk of the group.

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Post by Geoffrey »

Thus far I've read only Vance's four books set in his Dying Earth. While I love the first volume, I thought the other three volumes amusing but forgettable. :(
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