Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Clangador wrote:

T. Foster wrote:

grodog wrote:I haven't read any Hornblower, but have heard good things about them since college friends recommended them.

I'm about 2/3 of the way through Beat to Quarters (the first-written of the Hornblower books; 6th chronologically) and it's really good -- very fast-moving and the naval terminology isn't at all overbearing. Its influence on Star Trek (especially Wrath of Khan) is very evident.

Interesting. I have read two book of that series although I don't remember which they ones they were now. Would you recommend the whole series?

This is the only one I've read, so I can't speak to the series as a whole, but I very highly recommend this book. I've got two more of them (picked up at the same time -- at the local Border's going-out-of-business sale) that I'm sure I'll be reading sooner or later, and from there I'll decide if I want to go on to finish up the entire 11-volume series.

T. Foster wrote:This is the only one I've read, so I can't speak to the series as a whole, but I very highly recommend this book. I've got two more of them (picked up at the same time -- at the local Border's going-out-of-business sale) that I'm sure I'll be reading sooner or later, and from there I'll decide if I want to go on to finish up the entire 11-volume series.

I have read the whole series, but it was a decade ago. Some of the stories are stronger than others. Alas, I don't recall which is which. The novels published earlier are stronger, if memory serves, than the later stories but the publishers have all reorganized it into "chronological order" (like they did with Narnia), a poor decision in my opinion.

I recall that the last story that Forester wrote was incomplete but very, very touching -- a poignant conclusion to the series.

rogatny wrote:By the way, Robert Downey Junior was perfectly amusing as Holmes in the recent movie...

I went into that movie with the attitude that "this isn't really going to be a Sherlock Holmes movie." Because of that, I was able to enjoy the movie for what it was.

(My favorite Holmes actor is Jeremy Brett.)

Just finished (re-)reading Clarke's Childhood's End: still powerful in its inexplicably bittersweet way.

On the RPG side of things, I've been reading through the Mongoose RQII version of Elric of Melniboné (which, much like MRQII itself, surprises me with how good it is). It's inspired me to go dust off my copies of the Elric series. (I have avoided doing this because my previous re-readings of Moorcock's other books didn't live up to the memory, but I guess I'll give them a shot, anyway.)

I loved Jeremy Brett as Holmes in the old BBC show from the mid-eighties. He was perfect in my mind.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086661/

I finished Elric of Melniboné this afternoon. I enjoyed it; I'll be continuing on with Sailor on the Seas of Fate.

I haven't read any Elric stories since Elric at the End of Time came out in paperback back in the mid 80s. It seems that there are some Elric stories I've missed:

• Elric: The Making of a Sorcerer - a graphic novel "prequel." Eh...dunno about this.
• The Fortress of the Pearl
• The Revenge of the Rose
• The Dreamthief's Daughter
• The Skrayling Tree
• The White Wolf's Son

I had no idea Moorcock had expanded the Elric stories so much. How do these compare with the earlier books?

Philotomy Jurament wrote:I finished Elric of Melniboné this afternoon. I enjoyed it; I'll be continuing on with Sailor on the Seas of Fate.

I haven't read any Elric stories since Elric at the End of Time came out in paperback back in the mid 80s. It seems that there are some Elric stories I've missed:

• Elric: The Making of a Sorcerer - a graphic novel "prequel." Eh...dunno about this.
• The Fortress of the Pearl
• The Revenge of the Rose
• The Dreamthief's Daughter
• The Skrayling Tree
• The White Wolf's Son

I had no idea Moorcock had expanded the Elric stories so much. How do these compare with the earlier books?

I read Fortress of the Pearl when it came out and thought it was pretty good, about on the same level as the lesser books from the original series (e.g. Sailor on the Seas of Fate). I also read Revenge of the Rose and don't really remember much about it except that I thought it was overwritten, slow, and boring. I own a copy of The Dreamthief's Daughter (in hardcover, autographed by Moorcock at the late, lamented Dangerous Visions store, no less) but have never felt any pressing desire to read it. I confess I never even bothered to buy the last two.

IMO the Elric Saga is really all about one book -- The Stealer of Souls published in 1967* by Lancer Books containing the stories "The Dreaming City," "While the Gods Laugh," "The Stealer of Souls," "Kings in Darkness," and "The Flame Bringers." These were the first-written and, IMO, still the best Elric stories, and are much leaner and less pretentious than what came after (including the volume Stormbringer that followed immediately after and sort of set the tone for everything else).

*note that the stories had all originally appeared in magazine form (and maybe even book form in the UK?) a few years earlier, c. 1962-63.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:(My favorite Holmes actor is Jeremy Brett.)

I'll second that!

Philotomy Jurament wrote: Elric: The Making of a Sorcerer - a graphic novel "prequel." Eh...dunno about this.
The Fortress of the Pearl
The Revenge of the Rose
The Dreamthief's Daughter
The Skrayling Tree
The White Wolf's Son[/list]

I had no idea Moorcock had expanded the Elric stories so much. How do these compare with the earlier books?

In general, I agree with Trent's views on them, although I really like the way that MM expands how he describes and plays with the concept of the Multiverse during the Dreamthief's Daugther (IIRC), building strongly on the material from Von Bek stories (in partiular The Warhound and the World's Pain, which remains one of my favorite MM novels written). I haven't read the most-recent MM (WW's Son) since Heather got it for me on the Kindle, then appropriated the Kindle.

I haven't re-read most of the recent Elrics at all, but my recollection is that I didn't like FotP or RotR too much. I did enjoy the graphic novel, though---worth picking up if you like Dt'sD.

(autographed by Moorcock at the late, lamented Dangerous Visions store, no less)

God I miss that place. For those who don't know, Dangerous Visions was a speculative fiction store in Sherman Oaks/NoHo that was also a popular hang-out for many of the local writers, including Bradbury, Niven, Pournelle, Ellison, Barker and a bunch of other horror writers (I think Karl Edward Wagner (rip) was pretty tight with the shop). Really cool owner, great selection and fantastic book signings: this store was the go-to for those in the specfic industry.

- Wheggi

Wheggi wrote:...including Bradbury, Niven, Pournelle, Ellison, Barker and a bunch of other horror writers (I think Karl Edward Wagner (rip) was pretty tight with the shop)

Heh. Not an Ellison fan? I've only read a few of his stories (Ticktockman, etc.). He seems like a crazy bastard.

Has a cool house.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:He seems like a crazy bastard.

He's not just seeming to be a crazy bastard....

Philotomy Jurament wrote: He seems like a bastard.

Fixed for ya.

- Wheggi

T. Foster wrote:IMO the Elric Saga is really all about one book -- The Stealer of Souls published in 1967* by Lancer Books containing the stories "The Dreaming City," "While the Gods Laugh," "The Stealer of Souls," "Kings in Darkness," and "The Flame Bringers." These were the first-written and, IMO, still the best Elric stories, and are much leaner and less pretentious than what came after (including the volume Stormbringer that followed immediately after and sort of set the tone for everything else).

*note that the stories had all originally appeared in magazine form (and maybe even book form in the UK?) a few years earlier, c. 1962-63.

I thoroughly agree.

T. Foster wrote:IMO the Elric Saga is really all about one book -- The Stealer of Souls published in 1967* by Lancer Books containing the stories "The Dreaming City," "While the Gods Laugh," "The Stealer of Souls," "Kings in Darkness," and "The Flame Bringers." These were the first-written and, IMO, still the best Elric stories, and are much leaner and less pretentious than what came after (including the volume Stormbringer that followed immediately after and sort of set the tone for everything else).

The Stealer of Souls was the only volume of Elric tales I ever read back in the day and it's to blame for the fact that I have such a fondness for the Young Kingdoms. When Del Rey started releasing all of Moorcock's Elric stories in new paperback editions a few years ago, I dutifully bought and read them as they were published. But, as I worked my way through them, I found my enthusiasm rapidly waning and I even started to feel negatively toward the original stories. So, I stopped reading and buying the series.

A lot, maybe most, writers have only a couple of good stories in them and my feeling is that Michael Moorcock is one of them. His best stuff is genuinely good in my opinion, both well written and clever. Unfortunately, he's written far more mediocre, ponderous, and self-indulgent stuff and, for reasons I've never quite understood, gets praised far more for that than his early, genuinely groundbreaking writings.