Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Falconer wrote:According to WotC's official branding of their D&D product, there were 3 Editions, and now there are 4 Editions. It's a perfectly valid scheme.

1st Edition D&D: Gygax TSR (Original, Basic, and Advanced)
2nd Edition D&D: Post-Gygax TSR (Classic and Advanced)
3rd Edition D&D: WotC d20
4th Edition D&D: WotC current product

Of course around here we like to get more nuanced and talk about our favorite "Holmes + Eldritch Wizardry & Monster Manual & DEFINITELY NO UA...edition", but from where WotC is standing, broader strokes are no doubt convenient.

What's funny to me is that ONLY in the Post-Gygax TSR era would "1st Edition" officially mean specifically OAD&D.

Apparently so, and really, on a stylistic or game-philosophical level it does make sense, just so long as you ignore the rules on the page. It's also funny that they put the 2E break at 1990 rather than 1989 (when the core 2E rulebooks were actually released) which could be read as suggesting that if you play 2E using just the core rulebooks that you're still effectively in the 1E mindset, and it's only once you add the splatbooks and all the various campaign settings (Spellammer, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape, etc.) that were released in 1990 and after that it truly becomes 2E

T. Foster wrote:But the question wasn't "which versions have you ever played?" it was "which versions have you played in the last 3 months?"

D'oh! You're right, of course. My bad.

I doubt there are many people who've played a OE or 1E game since Feb. 2009 who aren't sure of the difference (unless their involvement is so casual that they're not going to be taking this survey anyway).

I have to concede that, since although I took the survey and am reasonably clued into the differences, none of my AD&D group did (as far as I'm aware), and they are certainly less clued into the differences than I.

Well, I've done my bit for king and country.

As did I: I completely ignored it, didn't even go look. I give a fuck less if Hasbro wants to know what I play. I don't want them to get their paws into our game . . . . they'll only ruin it.

- Wheggi

Foster: " if you play 2E using just the core rulebooks that you're still effectively in the 1E mindset, and it's only once you add the splatbooks and all the various campaign settings (Spellammer, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape, etc.) that were released in 1990 and after that it truly becomes 2E"

Nice cetch.
I also ignored it. Whats the bloody point.

I have to agree with Wheggi. I see no good coming of it if Wizards should actually turn their eyes on The Game. OD&D and AD&D need no "improvements" or "updates" by people who can't even tell them apart.

I took the survey just to be counted among the people who don't and won't play 4E.

Mainly, I just wanted to say I have tried 4e and didn't like it. It's okay for what it is, and the folks I was playing with made it enjoyable.

But both character creation and combat reminded me too much of what I do for a living to qualify as "desirable leisure activity".

With OSRIC, S&W, and LL available, along with my stash of OOP material, I'm not too worried about what the suits will do.

Palmer wrote:I have to agree with Wheggi. I see no good coming of it if Wizards should actually turn their eyes on The Game. OD&D and AD&D need no "improvements" or "updates" by people who can't even tell them apart.

If that were the real point of a 1e player taking the survey, then I'd agree with you. But it's not, so you're missing the point entirely.

Wheggi wrote:As did I: I completely ignored it, didn't even go look. I give a fuck less if Hasbro wants to know what I play. I don't want them to get their paws into our game . . . . they'll only ruin it.

- Wheggi

Ditto. I refuse to support WotC in any manner.

Thanks much for the link ... had to add in my 2 pfennig worth ... no intention of supporting Hasborg's current efforts.

Guy Fullerton wrote:

Palmer wrote:I have to agree with Wheggi. I see no good coming of it if Wizards should actually turn their eyes on The Game. OD&D and AD&D need no "improvements" or "updates" by people who can't even tell them apart.

If that were the real point of a 1e player taking the survey, then I'd agree with you. But it's not, so you're missing the point entirely.

What is the point then of a 1E player taking the survey? I don't buy any Wizards products, And I want them to do nothing whatsoever with OD&D or AD&D. They would be incapable of refraining from tainting them with currently fashionable notions about gaming, should they decide to reissue either game. They have an almost perfect record of making the wrong decision whenever possible.

Palmer wrote:

Guy Fullerton wrote:

Palmer wrote:I have to agree with Wheggi. I see no good coming of it if Wizards should actually turn their eyes on The Game. OD&D and AD&D need no "improvements" or "updates" by people who can't even tell them apart.

If that were the real point of a 1e player taking the survey, then I'd agree with you. But it's not, so you're missing the point entirely.

What is the point then of a 1E player taking the survey? I don't buy any Wizards products, And I want them to do nothing whatsoever with OD&D or AD&D. They would be incapable of refraining from tainting them with currently fashionable notions about gaming, should they decide to reissue either game. They have an almost perfect record of making the wrong decision whenever possible.

Exactly. Given what we know about what Wizards wants to do with the D&D RPG (and what they've done to it) a "reworked" 1e by Wizards would be...icky.

Palmer wrote:What is the point then of a 1E player taking the survey?

For me, the reasons are:

- Help show potential demand for making the 1e back catalog available in electronic form again. When I started up my most recent AD&D group a couple weeks ago, we were short 3 copies of the PHB; I would have pointed those players at the commercially available, legal pdf copies of the PHB, had they still been available.

- Let them know why you like 1e better than other editions. There are several free-form text areas that ask questions pertinent to that. They may or may not be clueless about the virtues of 1e play (or old school play in general, for that matter), so it doesn't hurt to show them some. Perhaps it's a long shot, but they just might take some of those virtues to heart. If it gets even just one more person to clue into the virtues of the old school, it's a step in the right direction.

With as much bashing as some old schoolers do about WotC just not getting what D&D really means, and with some old schoolers being willing to take the time to spout off in some random forum about it, you'd *think* those old schoolers would want to actually give that feedback to WotC when WotC explicitly asks for it.

If somebody wanted to give you a free lottery ticket, would you take it? Odds are, it won't be worth very much, but even the chance a $1 or $5 payoff would be worth it, no?

I don't buy any Wizards products, And I want them to do nothing whatsoever with OD&D or AD&D.

I don't understand this point. They can't do anything with AD&D and OD&D; you already have them as they are. What, are you afraid they'll come to your house to take your books away?

They would be incapable of refraining from tainting them with currently fashionable notions about gaming, should they decide to reissue either game.

That's already shown to be false. They made the 1e pdfs available unchanged from the most recent editions printed by tsr.

They have an almost perfect record of making the wrong decision whenever possible.

But they have made some good decisions regarding 1e, and you have a chance (likely small, but still there) to help them make more. Whether you squander it is your choice entirely, of course.

Do you vote?

GF: "I don't understand this point. They can't do anything with AD&D and OD&D; you already have them as they are. What, are you afraid they'll come to your house to take your books away? "

Anything short of a reprint of the original books will be to some degree worse (and with this companies track record, far worse in writing, layout, art, you name it). Very likely it would create a merge of rules (perhaps a d20 light, or something closer to 2E) that called itself a "return to AD&D". Those unfamiliar with 1E or OD&D who might have given it a chance would be distracted and play the new shiney books (hell even those already playing 1E). That experiance would be both inferior, and distracting (just as C&C took the wind out of a retroclone movement when it first came out). Hell, even if WOTC managed to do a simple restatement like Osric 2, they'd brand it with modernisms and commercialism that would still fall way short of the original books.
Take a look at the cover of your PH...then open it and start reading. Do you honestly think WOTC could (or would ever) want to try and recreate this? AD&D wasn't popular only for what it was, it was popular for what it wasn't. Whoever made AD&D and OD&D obviously loved them, loved playing them and wanted to share that excitement (and all the usual marketing gimmicky crap was left out). The 1E PH, DMG and MM are examples of what most marketers at the time would have told the world would never sell, yet it did (and not only because it was the first FRPG but because it was actually good). This is similar to the phenomina we see in the movie industry. Marketers push using big stars, the usual plots and overly done special effects. Yet some of the biggest money makers (and by far the best movies) of all time did the opposite, with directors focusing rather on thier own vision and taste rather then falling back on the usual tricks. WOTC has proven time and again to fall into the shmarmy "old tricks" camp (listening to their marketers rather then the gamers (ie us) they wish to target), and there, in a nut shell, is the problem (exactly the same probl. with 2E way back when). When you try to make a product that appeals to everyone, you end up creating something that has no staying power, because it doesn't really satisfy.