Knights & Knaves Alehouse

sepulchre wrote:Axe wrote:

You mean giant companies that likely buy off corupt politicans. Barons might be a better name for it?

I don't think so, given that corporations are individual persons under the law, they enjoy the same and more protections that guarantee the freedom of legal citizens. Without a legal means to distinguish between the welfare of it's citizens and that of corporations a democracy a moral component to its laws.

Economically, all of these corporations then become inextricably connected with the 'barons' as you call them because their investments are tied up with the financial success of larger corporations. As a note, these 'barons' were historically only reigned in by the kind of legislation republicans seem to despise, that is, anti-trust legislation).

Sep, I'm not following you. If I start a painting business tomarrow I do so as a corporation to protect myself from potential lawsuites (so I don't loose my house, first born son etc.) when I drop that 5 gallon bucket of paint on someones head by accident.
Its the same as a sole propriatership (in reality) accept for that protection (and some tax saving mumbo jumbo, most relating to deductions).

How is my 1 man incorporated business painting houses tied up with the success of other corporations (any more then if I was not incorporated)?

Also, I think we need to be careful not to demonize big corporations. They make things that people buy and for a profit (and at a cheaper price then smaller companies could). They employ people, and are far more efficient then ANY government. Plus we should all one day aspire to start such a company. Gary Gygax did, and if not for a few crappy decisions, he might be the head of a giant mega-corporation today called TSR.

AxeMental wrote:Also, I think we need to be careful not to demonize big corporations too much. They make things that people buy and for a profit.

Let me be clear: I'm talking about the multi-nationals and any company that uses the government to intentionally cause harm to US citizens (whether through fraud or even passive means). That to me is what Corporatism means. I'm not talking Mom & Pop or even Wal-Mart (who I think gets unfairly demonized alot of times). Also, its really the Banking Cartel that is the root of the problem. Sadly, most people in the US don't understand this problem, though more and more are waking up to that fact.

A great example of a big corporation that harms everyday citizens is the Internal Revenue Service, which has been fraudulently deputized by an Act of Congress to collect taxes from Americans. This is done so essentially at gunpoint and almost every working American is affected by them (with the exceptions of those lucky enough to get paid under-the-table or as independent contractors). That guy making 20k a year still pays all his Social Security (a lie if there ever was one that people only pay half), Medicare and Unemployment Insurance (which you can never get 100% back when you file).

As for me, my conscience is clear. I'm a Ron Paul Libertarian and wrote in my vote for him. As long as I don't live in Missouri I'll be ok.

Keolander wrote:I'm a Ron Paul Libertarian

I would never have guessed!

Sep: "Economically conserverative? That's what got the country here in the first place: don't tax, borrow - spend, and then let the democrats take the fall by having to raise taxes to pay off the deficit and all the interest. Moreover deregulation and letting the market determine policy is another failed ideological concept that forms the foundation of economic conservatism."
-Wrong on both counts.

Reagan outspent the Soviets, ultimately thats what lead to their demise. At times of war (and cold war) its worth it (to keep a planet away communism/totalitarianism). The country had huge economic growth during those same years. Under Clinton (and a congress controlled by Republicans) we had the deficit brought down to zero, things were about the same. Running under a deficit isn't horrible, nor is running without one the answer to everything. You do it when you need to (and we are at war at the moment).

Sep, lowering taxes puts money in peoples pockets (which they spend) and increases business activity (thus generating wealth for owners and employees and creates jobs). A state with too high a level of taxes actually collects less $ (over the long haul) because the economy becomes stalled and people trying to become wealthy loose any insentive (why aspire to become wealthy if you loose it all to the tax man?). A state with low taxes increases the amount collected because people have money to spend (generating good paying jobs with taxable income and sales tax revenue) and invest (remember investment is also a critical part of starting a business). A state of lower taxes (on the so called wealthy (defined these days as $250K) creates huge insentives to leave your stable job (a risk) and attempt to start a business where you'll make a better living for yourself and family. (I believe small business is still the number one employer of the nation). And that my friend, is what makes a free market capitalistic world go around. Infact, the American Dream is tied to this basic free market/capitalistic goal (having a good life by taking initiative and working hard). Its also linked to the concept that nothing in life is free. You can't expect to not work hard and get payed for it (and that is what the social state has become with the redistrubution of wealth thats going on, I've seen it first hand during disaster inspections...you'd flip out).

Want to make noise, go after government waste. It seems the Democrats are always screaming about increasing taxes but don't give much attention to where that money goes. Alot of it ends up in redistribution of wealth, and alot more goes to paying for grossly inefficiently run government (salaries way to high relative to the private world/and their education, totally inefficient and wasteful and often not needed (occupying make believe paper pushing jobs). If you need to generate money Sep, I suggest you start there (rather then raising peoples taxes). Oh, and stop this policy in government of having to spend your entire budget or loose that amount the following year (if you know anyone that works in government ask them about this). We don't need to see anymore massive city works created for no other reason than to eat up money, or dumpsters full of office supplies, computers, etc. outside government institutions (like our schools) for the sake of keeping their budgets. What waste on the backs of the people that actualy produce.

The last people you want to target are those that create jobs (small businesses owned by people making around 200-500K a year) and thats exactly who the dems have in the cross hairs. Idiotic. So when these folks close shop and they fire all their workers, who's going to take care of them? The guys who are still in business of course (the evil rich) asked to pay even more taxes. Eventually this socialist system of wealth distribution and big government (and right now its huge) will collapse (as Foster stated earlier) but by that time we won't be the same country anymore (Mexico will look good). Also, as Foster mentioned other Republicans saying, if you swing too far to the left, new laws make it next to impossible to reverse course (a freedom, once given up to government, is next to impossible to recover).

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:That suggests to me that the US is finally maturing, politically speaking, and finally moving into the centre ground from its former extremist position.

Capitalists and socialists both want to protect the people who do the actual work. It's just that the capitalists want to protect them from the idle, parasitic poor, but the socialists want to protect them from the idle, exploitative rich.

Capitalists want to be the exploitative rich. They don't tend to care about the poor one way or another. If it was just the "lazy bums" that the market worshippers despised, they wouldn't fight so strenuously against policies designed to help the working poor like "living wage" legislation and organized labor.

Keolander wrote:Well, we ain't had Free Market Capitalism in this country for a LONG time. The Railroad Era was really the beginning of the end for that because the government got in bed with the corporations to the detriment of regular citizens. Corporatism is what it truly is and the corporations use the government to bludgeon everybody in their path. However, even the corporations simply take their walking orders from the Banking cartels. Thats really who benefits from our Ponzi Scheme called taxation and Keynesian economics.

You wanna fix this country? Can be done in a few simple steps.

- Obliterate (not just abolish) The Federal Reserve and the fraudulent fiat money system/fractional reserve banking. Seize all assets, including precious metals, held by the Federal Reserve and its board members to be added to the National Treasury. This start us on the road to returning to the gold/silver standard (ie - real money) instead of the inflationary crap thats passed around now .

- Rescind the 16th Amendment and amend the Constitution to forbid the Federal Government from collecting taxes (of any kind) on personal property, meaning money, and close the loophole on Corporate Taxation (every American would get an instant pay raise) and more revenue would be generated by corporate taxes.

- Rescind the 17th Amendment so that we can get a handle on this ridiculous deficit spending and have balanced budgets once again. If Senators had to do what the Constitution used to say (apportionment) then they would get their ass recalled by their governors for handing them a bill for their portion of the deficit.

- Amend the Consititution to forbid, at all levels of Government, Sovereign Immunity. No employee of any government body in this country should be beyond the reach of the law. Corrupt politicians, murdering police thugs and thieving bureaucrats would get thrown in jail more often.

- End the fraudulent and ridiculous War on Drugs. Pardon all non-violent drug offenders currently in prison and return their full Constitutional Rights to them.

I agree 100% with everything in this post. That's why none of it will happen.


Axe wrote:

Why would a person making 20K a year with no hope or ambition to one day make more ever vote for or fight for low taxes (when they presently pay non)?

That's the capitalist mindset, right there. If you are poor you deserve to be poor, because you have no "ambition". Forget that the system requires a substantial number of low-paid workers to do unfulfilling, menial jobs. "No hope" is simply a matter of rational judgement.

Capitalism* is comparable to Feudalism, as it requires millions of peasants (working hard for little pay) to keep the nobility in opulence and luxury (see China, sweatshop, freetrade). An individual's chances of going from serfdom to nobility are about the same as well (see "winning the lottery").

The great innovation of Capitalism over Feudalism is "the American Dream". The "American Dream" is just that, a dream. Our economy is little more than a vast pyramid scheme that relies on vast legions of underpaid peasants working themselves to death in the vain hope that someday, if they just work long and hard enough, they just might make it into the "upper world".

*Capitalism does not mean "free market" (which implies an even playing field where people may sell and trade as equals), it means domination by "Capital" - high Finance. Remember "the Gilded Age"? That was "Free Market Capitalism" at it finest.

sepulchre wrote:

You mean giant companies that likely buy off corupt politicans. Barons might be a better name for it?

I don't think so, given that corporations are individual persons under the law, they enjoy the same and more protections that guarantee the freedom of legal citizens. Without a legal means to distinguish between the welfare of it's citizens and that of corporations a democracy is at a loss for a key moral component to its laws.

Economically, all of these corporations then become inextricably connected with the 'barons' as you call them because their investments are tied up with the financial success of larger corporations in the market. As a note, these 'barons' were historically only reigned in by the kind of legislation republicans seem to despise, that is, anti-trust legislation).

+1, of Sharpness

mjollnir wrote:I agree 100% with everything in this post. That's why none of it will happen.

Hehe....sad, but true until something finally breaks down.

Axe wrote:
Quote:
Why would a person making 20K a year with no hope or ambition to one day make more ever vote for or fight for low taxes (when they presently pay non)?


MJ: "That's the capitalist mindset, right there. If you are poor you deserve to be poor, because you have no "ambition". Forget that the system requires a substantial number of low-paid workers to do unfulfilling, menial jobs. "No hope" is simply a matter of rational judgement.
Capitalism* is comparable to Feudalism, as it requires millions of peasants (working hard for little pay) to keep the nobility in opulence and luxury (see China, sweatshop, freetrade). An individual's chances of going from serfdom to nobility are about the same as well (see "winning the lottery").
The great innovation of Capitalism over Feudalism is "the American Dream". The "American Dream" is just that, a dream."


MJ -I suggest you do this, start talking to people you run into on a daily basis that seem to be living well and ask to here their story. You will find most are self made (coming from humble beginnings, they are not typically "old money" or "nobility" as you may think.

Feudalism and nobility are by definition people who have power and wealth by birth. They are not self made. The very opposite of what capitalism/free market brings. The closest thing we have to nobility in our country are those that work for government (the Bush's the Kennedy family etc.)

In a capitalistic society those that inherit wealth often in a single generation loose it (blowing it on luxury goods, etc.) , those that start out with nothing often in a single generation make a fortune (slowly saving). The American Dream is that even dirt poor....you can get an education (free or by borrowing if need be) and get a skill: become an electrician, a computer scientist, a doctor, a nurse, a lawyer, or whatever you tend to like, work in that profession, and in 10 years live in a good house, drive a good car, and have enough spending money to do stuff, etc. (the other route: you can start a business and be your own boss, build it up and do very well). Often times the most successful people started out poor, and thus weren't risk adverse.

In a capitalistic/free market society, the freedom you enjoy working for yourself, or working in a profession you LOVE also has great value. The fact that no one in government forced you to do this or that profession (as happens in other countries) has value. Why do you think so many professionals are Asian (Indians, Pakis, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.), its because they utilize their brains and thrive in the American system. Most have very little money to their name when they get to the States, they make it here and save. And yes, many have to go threw years of being one of the "millions of peasants (working hard for little pay)". The difference was, they didn't plop down in front of the boob-tube and drink beer all night. They went to night school, saved and did what it took to make more money (usually getting an education in a needed profession).

One interesting side note: in many places, so many people become educated that there is no one to do the basic labor anymore. To attact basic labor the person hiring has to offer a higher wage (sometimes paying more then professionals maek, India is one place this is occuring on a large scale). Its a matter of supply and demand.

The fact that everyone doesn't reach that goal has to do with luck and psychological issues (some people are fearful of change, others try to do something (like art) that doesn't pay alot but they love etc.), some its just bad luck (they need to raise a family and can't take the same risks others can, they have a sick loved one they have to care for (a full time job in itself) etc. Just because you haven't "made it" yet, doesn't mean that you can't. Don't give up. Find someone that was successful in a career you'd like and ask them how they did it, then do the same thing.

Theoretical ideals tend to give way to practical values.

AxeMental wrote:Axe wrote:
Quote:
Why would a person making 20K a year with no hope or ambition to one day make more ever vote for or fight for low taxes (when they presently pay non)?


MJ: "That's the capitalist mindset, right there. If you are poor you deserve to be poor, because you have no "ambition". Forget that the system requires a substantial number of low-paid workers to do unfulfilling, menial jobs. "No hope" is simply a matter of rational judgement.
Capitalism* is comparable to Feudalism, as it requires millions of peasants (working hard for little pay) to keep the nobility in opulence and luxury (see China, sweatshop, freetrade). An individual's chances of going from serfdom to nobility are about the same as well (see "winning the lottery").
The great innovation of Capitalism over Feudalism is "the American Dream". The "American Dream" is just that, a dream."


MJ -I suggest you do this, start talking to people you run into on a daily basis that seem to be living well and ask to here their story. You will find most are self made (coming from humble beginnings, they are not typically "old money" or "nobility" as you may think.

Feudalism and nobility are by definition people who have power and wealth by birth. They are not self made. The very opposite of what capitalism/free market brings. The closest thing we have to nobility in our country are those that work for government (the Bush's the Kennedy family etc.)

Both systems require masses of low paid workers doing menial jobs. It is possible, though far from assured, that with tireless effort, to rise from underclass to middle; it was also possible for a serf to escape his station and become a burgher, though that didn't happen often either (statistically).

AxeMental wrote: In a capitalistic society those that inherit wealth often in a single generation loose it (blowing it on luxury goods, etc.) , those that start out with nothing often in a single generation make a fortune (slowly saving). The American Dream is that even dirt poor....you can get an education (free or by borrowing if need be) and get a skill: become an electrician, a computer scientist, a doctor, a nurse, a lawyer, or whatever you tend to like, work in that profession, and in 10 years live in a good house, drive a good car, and have enough spending money to do stuff, etc. (the other route: you can start a business and be your own boss, build it up and do very well). Often times the most successful people started out poor, and thus weren't risk adverse.

Like a pyramid, there is more room at the bottom than there is at the top. Competition grows increasingly fierce the higher you try to go (hence the cut-throat, workaholic "rat-race" that is so healthy for mankind), and those who already have wealth (and connections) have a very powerful advantage over those who do not.

AxeMental wrote: In a capitalistic/free market society, the freedom you enjoy working for yourself, or working in a profession you LOVE also has great value. The fact that no one in government forced you to do this or that profession (as happens in other countries) has value.

A person is lucky if they can make a living doing something they don't hate. Most people I know work to earn a living, not because they love their job. Necessity forces most people into their given professions, the "choice value" is negated in a great many instances.

AxeMental wrote: Why do you think so many professionals are Asian (Indians, Pakis, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.), its because they utilize their brains and thrive in the American system. Most have very little money to their name when they get to the States, they make it here and save. And yes, many have to go threw years of being one of the "millions of peasants (working hard for little pay)".

I think it's because they're used to being hardworking, thankless peasants. Coming from China, making it in America must be pretty easy.

AxeMental wrote: The difference was, they didn't plop down in front of the boob-tube and drink beer all night. They went to night school, saved and did what it took to make more money (usually getting an education in a needed profession).

Again, no defense of capitalism is complete without denigrating the imagined laziness and moral failings of the poor.

AxeMental wrote: One interesting side note: in many places, so many people become educated that there is no one to do the basic labor anymore. To attact basic labor the person hiring has to offer a higher wage (sometimes paying more then professionals maek, India is one place this is occuring on a large scale). Its a matter of supply and demand.

That' how it's supposed to work, but here in the good ol' United States this never seems to happen. We always have a surplus of labor (largely due to mass immigration, both legal and illegal, consisting mostly of people accustomed to working for peanuts) which keeps wages low even as productivity and technology improve (and that's just for the jobs that can't, for practical purposes, be sent overseas).

We have this because of CAPITALism (the rule of capital). Coroprate and financial interests own the US political system from top to bottom, invariably to the detriment of the populace as a whole.

I like "free market places" of equals doing business for mutual benifit. I don't like the Plutocracy that arises when anarcho-capitalist philosophy is put into practice.

AxeMental wrote: The fact that everyone doesn't reach that goal has to do with luck and psychological issues (some people are fearful of change, others try to do something (like art) that doesn't pay alot but they love etc.), some its just bad luck (they need to raise a family and can't take the same risks others can, they have a sick loved one they have to care for (a full time job in itself) etc. Just because you haven't "made it" yet, doesn't mean that you can't. Don't give up. Find someone that was successful in a career you'd like and ask them how they did it, then do the same thing.

I appreciate that you are a well meaning person, but I think you miss the bigger picture by focusing only the individual and how he can overcome his circumstances, rather than how society could (or should) change those circumstances for everyone. Most people will never move up the social ladder, I think it is important that those who remain at the bottom are able to enjoy a standard of living that befits a civilized, industrial nation in the 21st century.

MJ: "Both systems require masses of low paid workers doing menial jobs. It is possible, though far from assured, that with tireless effort, to rise from underclass to middle; it was also possible for a serf to escape his station and become a burgher, though that didn't happen often either (statistically). "

This is true in any economy, The difference is, with free market/capitalism (and make no mistake they are one in the same) the individual has the chance to improve his lot with hard work and playing smart (ie. getting an education in something you like).

The problem with your mind set is two fold: first it creates a need to tax those that produce and work hard (playing by the rules) to equalize wealth (by giving this to the poor). This creates a disinsentive to work hard, go threw the education process, to take risks (whats the point if your going to loose 50% of what you make to the tax man) etc.

Second, it creates a ruling class of government elights (who pocket and waist large sums of your hard earned money). If you watch the news, no matter how good the economy is the government is constantly out of money and begging for more.

As a side note, I was just yesterday talking to a French guy and his wife. Both in their mid 30s, said they just recently moved to the United States because trying to own a business in France was horribly expensive (you couldn't afford to hire due to some monsterous labor tax). They also couldn't stand their socialist government (apparently taxed the crap out of everyone trying to make a living). I told them they moved to the wrong country, Obama-Nation is not far behind France.


Btw the only people that seem to hate their jobs are attorneys (at least they complain about it the most).

AxeMental wrote: Its funny, when I was a kid a free market/capitalism was considered as much a part of "freedom" as were our Constitutional rights (speech etc.).

Axe, when you were a kid (the '70s, right?), Social Security had already become entrenched as many people's sole retirement plan (rather than a supplement), Medicare & Medicaid were done deals and welfare was already spinning out of control.

I think you're looking at your childhood through rose-colored glasses.

Show: Lil' Abner
Year: 1956
Song: The Country's In The Very Best of Hands

THE COUNTRY'S IN THE VERY BEST OF HANDS

Them city folks and friends
Are pretty much alike
Though they ain't used to living in the sticks
We don't like stone or cement
But we is in agreement
When we get started talking politics

The country's in the very best of hands
The best of hands
The best of hands

The treasury says the national debt
Is climbing to the sky
And government expenditures
Have never been so high
It makes a fellow get a
Gleam of pride when they decide
To see how our economy expands
The country's in the very best of hands

The country's in the very best of hands
The best of hands
The best of hands

You oughtta hear the senate
When their drawing up a bill
Where asses and dimwits are crowded in each conisil (sp.)
Such legal terminology
Would give your heart a thrill
There's phrases there that no one understands
The country's in the very best of hands

The building boom, they say
Is getting bigger every day
And when I asked a feller
How could everybody pay
He come up with an answer
That made everything okay
Supplies are getting greater than demands
The country's in the very best of hands

Don't you believe them congressmen
And senators are dumb
When they run into problems
That is tough to overcome
They just declare something
They call the moritorium
The upper and the lower house dismans
The country's in the very best of hands

Fox Motors is connected to the nominee
The nominee's connected to the treasury
When he ain't connected to the treasury
He sits around on his thigh bone

He sits around in his fancy car
This big congressional parking lot
Just sits around on the you know what
'Cause there they calls it their thigh bone

Them bones, them bones
Gonna rise again
Gonna excercise a franchise again
Gonna tax us up to our eyes again
When he gets them off of their thigh bone

The country's in the very best of hands
The best of hands
The best of hands

The farm bill should be
Eight-nine percent paroty
And all their fellow recommends
It should be mound at three
But eighty, ninety-five percent who cares about decree
It's paroty that no one understands
The country's in the very best of hands

Them GOP's and democrats
Each hates the other one
They's always criticizing
How the country should be run
But neither tell the public
What the others gone and done
As long as no one knows
Where no one stands
The country's in the very best of hands

They sits around and just place their ass
Where folks in congress has always sat
Just sits around on their excess bag
Up there they calls it their thigh bone

They sits around till they starts to snore
Jumps up and hollers
I has the floor
Then sits right down where they sats before
Up there they calls it their thigh bone

Them bones, them bones
Gonna cross again
So dignified and so wise again
While the budget doubles in size again
When it gets them off of their thigh bone

The country's in the very best of hands
The best of hands
The best of hands

The money that they taxes us
That's known as revenues
They compound up collaterals
Subtracts the residue

Don't worry about the principal
And interest it encrues
They're shipping all that stuff to foreign lands
The country's in the very best of hands


(Transcribed by Carlene Bogle - 2002)

TRP they are the only kind worth owning.

AxeMental wrote:MJ: "Both systems require masses of low paid workers doing menial jobs. It is possible, though far from assured, that with tireless effort, to rise from underclass to middle; it was also possible for a serf to escape his station and become a burgher, though that didn't happen often either (statistically). "

This is true in any economy, The difference is, with free market/capitalism (and make no mistake they are one in the same) the individual has the chance to improve his lot with hard work and playing smart (ie. getting an education in something you like).

We are agreed that any society is going to have a lower class. There is only room for so many in the middle class (inasmuch as it still exists), and still far fewer vacancies in the upper classes (the well-to-do through the obscenely rich). No matter how hard everyone works, a certain percentage is going to come out on the bottom (even most Olympic athletes are losers when it's all said and done).

The problem, as I see it, is that a decent standard of living (health care, financial security, safe neighborhoods, quality education, and so on) is largely denied to the great many people that remain in the lower class. In feudal society this is a result of the low level of technology. In modern society this is a result of the concentration of wealth in the hands of very few individuals (who are not "productive" by any definition of the word).

Wealth Distribution
In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers).

AxeMental wrote: The problem with your mind set is two fold: first it creates a need to tax those that produce and work hard (playing by the rules) to equalize wealth (by giving this to the poor). This creates a disinsentive to work hard, go threw the education process, to take risks (whats the point if your going to loose 50% of what you make to the tax man) etc.

Capitalism removes wealth from those who produce and work hard and gives it to the unproductive ruling class, financiers chief among them, whose role in society is essentially parasitic. This creates a "swimming against the tide" effect that further enriches the wealthy as workers struggle to just stay afloat, even while per capita productivity increases(driven by technology), if you want to actually get ahead you should plan on being lucky.

AxeMental wrote: Second, it creates a ruling class of government elights (who pocket and waist large sums of your hard earned money). If you watch the news, no matter how good the economy is the government is constantly out of money and begging for more.

Our country is terminally corrupt. This is evident in the fact most (if not all) powerful elements of society are widely despised and mistrusted (and for good reason).

Try to come up with solutions to real problems and you will run into this. Who do you hate more Big Buisness or Big Government? HMO's or Trial Lawers? Damned if you you do, damned if you don't. One thing is for sure, this country's damned.

AxeMental wrote: As a side note, I was just yesterday talking to a French guy and his wife. Both in their mid 30s, said they just recently moved to the United States because trying to own a business in France was horribly expensive (you couldn't afford to hire due to some monsterous labor tax). They also couldn't stand their socialist government (apparently taxed the crap out of everyone trying to make a living). I told them they moved to the wrong country, Obama-Nation is not far behind France.

I really have trouble caring how hard buisness owners have it, seriously.

You seem to have some flawed notion that there is a limited pool of money that has to be split up between people (like a pie with only so many pieces). This is not how an economy works. As more things are produced and more services offered the size of that pie grows. If everyone is working at improving themselves financially threw education and self interest those at the bottom can move to the top (like I said in an earlier post, the majority of the well to do that I know are actually from humble beginings...this accomplished in less then half a lifetime).

The fact that the middle class is shrinking has to do with three things: 1. the focus of education has been switched from science, math and hard core foundational subjects to "feel good" liberal arts (pushed by our liberal post Vietnam era education system) producing a population that isn't skilled or motivated in business or improving themselves threw hard work and focusing on upward movement. 2. High taxes for those that start "making it" means that wealth is sapped out of productive peoples' hands and given to those that are non productive (reducing the insentive to work at both ends) and 3. a lack of motivation. I've seen asian after asian move to the top in this country with very little money to their name when they get here. They do it by focusing on that goal. When we were out drinking and dating back in college, these guys were busting their butts in "hard classes" the ones most American kids avoided. Good for them.

And of course, the biggest problem of all is cultural. Too many people have been brought up to blame someone else. If you look at black kids in America, they have far more opportunities then white (given the legacy of affirmitive action) yet they consistantly underperform. This has nothing to do with ability (they are as smart as any white or asian) but growing up in unstable environments (broken homes, etc.) and coming from a culture that doesn't believe in pushing their kids to get educations or start businesses.

PS. BTW you better care how much it costs for business people to start and run a business. They employ the majority of Americans in this country, and what salary they can pay has to do with what amount is taken from them by Uncle Sam. The French couple I told you about never made much, but believed in the dream of reaping the rewards of their hard work (both working 14 hour days 6 days a week). Its people like them that make this country tick, not the people looking for free hand outs constantly. If everyone in this country got off their butts, started to focus their energy on improving thier position threw hard work, eduction, and inovation you'd see this country turn around in no time. The first thing we need to do is elect strong pro-small business government (economic conservatives). Govts. place is only in preventing monopolies (ie big business) from developing and preventing illegal activity (such as unions terrorizing people into joining, or threatening business owners personally into compliance). Govts. job isn't to control how or what things are produced, how much employees are payed, or to prevent competition (in an effort to protect their big money doners). If you remember anything, remember this: "we the people" have to work for our own best interest. Government is going to be the enemy more often then not, and you can be sure those that are on the top are going to do everything in their power to make sure it stays that way (number one by paying off government to make sure they stay there). Our job as voters is to make government work for us by allowing us to move upward economically.

I think that the Democratic and the Republican parties are basically the same thing:

statists

In other words, both parties try to be the one wielding the power and wealth of the U. S. Federal Government.

A pox on both their houses. I stand with Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel: No one should have that sort of power.

My dearest political hope is for the U. S. federal government to simply and peacefully cease to exist (as happened to the Soviet government in 1991). Never happen? That's what everybody thought regarding the Soviet Union before it imploded.

Failing that, I'm hoping for at least one state to secede. The day a state (any state) secedes, I'll put my house on the market. The day my house sells, I'll drive straight to the seceded state and live there.