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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:37 pm
by PapersAndPaychecks
Werral wrote:So we have less State run economy (excepting the recent u-turn on banks), yet more state interference in private lives.
Did you miss the pre-budget report today? :)

Alistair Darling's clearly decided it's time to lurch sharply to the left, and not a moment too soon, considering the mess we've made of our economy by leaving it to privatised industries and a virtually unregulated free market.

I think the banks have shown us that a free market can only be effective in a properly-regulated environment and we really do need to watch them.

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:44 pm
by AxeMental
PapersAndPaychecks wrote:
Werral wrote:So we have less State run economy (excepting the recent u-turn on banks), yet more state interference in private lives.
Did you miss the pre-budget report today? :)

Alistair Darling's clearly decided it's time to lurch sharply to the left, and not a moment too soon, considering the mess we've made of our economy by leaving it to privatised industries and a virtually unregulated free market.

I think the banks have shown us that a free market can only be effective in a properly-regulated environment and we really do need to watch them.
Your going to use the banking industry as an example of the entire free market going to pot? :shock: Certainly there is plenty going right in the free market. For instance, you have less expensive beer (and a good variety) due to good ol' fashion competition in the free market. Do you really think socialism (govt. control of the economy) is the answer. You want a bunch of politicians determining prices and supply and demand rather then free market forces? Shouldn't that be up to the consumer?

YIPERS!

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:28 am
by Algolei
PapersAndPaychecks wrote:I think the banks have shown us that a free market can only be effective in a properly-regulated environment and we really do need to watch them.
Yup.

Our Canadian politicians are swarming all over the media claiming "we did it right so we don't have the same problems as the Yanks," but I haven't heard anyone outside of Canada praising whatever it was we were doing right so I don't personally believe it to be true. However, I know we did have some regulations that were considered too strict by our right-wingers before the States' economy went tits-upward, so I suppose it is possible. Still, I'd like to hear someone trustworthy (ie, "foreign") praise the Canadian banking regulatory system before I buy into what my politicians claim.

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:43 am
by PapersAndPaychecks
AxeMental wrote:Your going to use the banking industry as an example of the entire free market going to pot? :shock:
Sure I am.

Margaret Thatcher deregulated our banking industry and removed the proper government controls that enabled the market to function. It's taken 25 years for those particular chickens to come home to roost, but with hindsight, they were always going to.

The free market can only function in a properly-regulated environment, where the government controls the natural behaviour of a profit-seeking board by preventing monopolistic, untruthful, exploitative or unacceptably high-risk business strategies from people who rely on statutory protection from liability.

I see the following fundamental flaws with Western capitalism.

First, a company's shareholders should be able to exert reasonable control over the board--but because, in modern capitalism, shareholders are likely to be pension funds and investment trusts rather than private individuals who know and care about the business they have a stake in, an important control over the board has been lost and company directors are insufficiently accountable.

Second, governments exert much stronger controls over trade unions than they do over corporations. This means the unions are emasculated in terms of their proper role in preventing exploitative behaviour; and instead, the government relies on statutory bodies and legislation to do things like setting minimum wages or preventing monopolies. In fact, unions consisting of people who actually work in the relevant industry should shoulder more of the burden there and governments should take less.

Third, despite their pretended anti-monopolistic legislation, our governments have allowed some businesses to get too big, or too vital, to fail, which forces the taxpayer to be the guarantor of last resort, enabling banks and financial firms to run unacceptable risks. To me, it's blindingly obvious that if a business is so important the taxpayer can't let it fail, then the taxpayer should own it; and it should be run for the benefit of the taxpayer. In other words, I'm in favour of compulsory nationalisation for any business that the taxpayer has to bail out--and the government should take ownership of the shares by means of confiscation rather than purchase (so neither directors nor shareholders receive any financial reward from that business once the taxpayer's had to take it over).

And then the board should be imprisoned for dereliction. This would probably mean new legislation to make the board of a company accountable for any burden its activities inflict on the taxpayer.

After nationalisation the government should subdivide the business into pieces that are small enough to be allowed to fail without taxpayer intervention and then sell it off in an attempt to recoup its losses.

Fourth, businesses are permitted to circumvent the natural workings of the free market in too many ways. For example, they're allowed to sell products so complicated and non-transparent that only a specialist can understand them. (Good examples of this kind of thing are pensions, mortgages and investments, where the competence of the fund managers and the charging structure to the investor are very far from transparent).

In fact, overall, the free market works for products like carrots or potatoes or beer, where both buyer and seller can be presumed to have perfect information about the product. It works less well for products where the customer has to rely on the seller for information, because sellers conceal important truths.

So in my opinion the free market can ONLY function in a properly-regulated environment. Which is what we don't have, and in the UK it would take a sharp lurch to the left to achieve it.

pond

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:06 am
by Ska
P&P----the main reasn the U.S. Banks are falling is due to TOO MUCH GOVT REGULATION not too little.

The Carter and Clinton Admin. pushed socialist laws forcing American banks to make loans to people who they would otherwise never would have.

Surprise, a downturn occurs and someone making $21,000 a year living in a $300,000 home now cannot make payments.

No, the collapse of the banks here was due to socialism. Socialism is never the answer if one wants a thriving economy and individual initiative.

Now, the banks and other financial institutions did fail in their securitization of these bad loans. These deriviatives allowed the plague of bad loans to spread throughout the fianancial system.

Re: pond

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:41 am
by PapersAndPaychecks
Ska wrote:P&P----the main reasn the U.S. Banks are falling is due to TOO MUCH GOVT REGULATION not too little.

The Carter and Clinton Admin. pushed socialist laws forcing American banks to make loans to people who they would otherwise never would have.
Well, I've heard that argument before from BPoM, and I'll say to you what I said to him: I think that's the triumph of right-wing ideology over fact.

When the actual law in question was linked, as I remember it proved to be a law forcing banks to make loans in a non-discriminatory way, i.e. not preferentially to white people over black or to men over women. The law certainly did not oblige banks to make loans to people who couldn't afford to repay them.

What caused the collapse of the US and UK banking systems is a regulatory environment that let people with limited liability take unlimited risks. That's a consequence of deregulation, i.e. a failure of extremist right wing policies, coupled with the fact that those whose job it was to prevent financial collapse had been removed or curtailed or just didn't know what was going on.

In fact, the banking system came so close to collapse because the right hand didn't know what the even further right hand was doing.
_____________________

The fact of the matter is that the right wing and the left wing are remarkably similar. Both of them want to protect the people who do the actual work from parasites.

The difference is that the right wing sees the "parasites" as the poor--i.e. primarily those on welfare. The left wing sees the "parasites" as the rich--and particularly those who have substantial sums of unearned capital, those who avoid tax on their assets, or those whose wealth is used in an exploitative way or does not create substantial numbers of jobs.

Because both sides are correct, the only sensible policies are those of the centre, as represented by Barack Obama and Gordon Brown.

Now, I understand that seeing Obama and Brown in power is painful for the wealthy, and I also understand that the people suffering are the ones who actually create wealth. I do see the unfairness in this.

But I think what the right wing is failing to understand is that social inequality isn't a sustainable situation. When there's a large enough gap between rich and poor, the result is revolution; because the general populace won't tolerate it. Un-curtailed success is eventually self-defeating.

Obama and Brown will protect the wealthy from that, and so I think people who've had a certain amount of success should be glad they've been (re-)elected.

And I speak as someone who owned four houses, three cars and two businesses on his thirtieth birthday. ;)

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:43 am
by TRP
I thought this thread was about booze and getting (or not) snockered. WTF does banking have to do with getting bombed (or not)?

I know. Let's all get juiced, raid Axe's and Ska's armories, and then go "take care of" all the politicians, investment bankers & lawyers/barristers.

There we go. Back on topic and inclusive of all the topic wanderings. :D

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:32 am
by AxeMental
P&P: "The free market can only function in a properly-regulated environment"

OK, we agree! :D your views sound similar to my own (basically someone who believes its better for supply and demand to self regulate in a free market (private buyers, sellers and producers) with only some minor government regulations and watch-dogging. The capitalism I believe in is regulated. In fact I totally agree with you on this statement: " where the government controls the natural behavior of a profit-seeking board by preventing monopolistic, untruthful, exploitative or unacceptably high-risk business strategies from people who rely on statutory protection from liability."

You are correct, the government should have prevented the banking systems from giving bad loans to people that couldn't afford them rather then requiring it (part 1) and the government allowed the over valuing of property by property appraisers (Part 2) as the government sets USPAP guidelines. This crisis is very similar to the Savings and Loans mess of the 80s, once again the fault of the government and the appraisal industry (though more the fault of the government agencies that set the USPAP standards).

Your also correct, huge mega-corporations are too often run by CEOs and upper level management that have very little interest in the actual long term survivability of the company they are managing (and why should they, if they increase the stock value of their company x in 3 years they can trade over to company y for a huge raise. Then when company x starts falling apart because of what you did (basically artificially make the books look good) you can blame it on their new management. This is not likely the norm, but it does happen. And the stock holders usually have very little to say about it. I'd like to see some laws passed to make the upper management more visible to the stock holder (basically their boss). Not to micro-manage, but to make sure he's not wasting company funds on lavish parties etc., or hiring Billy Bob his sisters retarded husband. Too often the board is stacked and are also milking the cow for what its worth. I think the upper level management of some companies is often run like the federal government (wasteful, corrupt and making poor and risky decisions based on their portfolio rather then the company they are charged to run).

I think the US economy runs at two levels in the private sector, the small to medium sized companies (which are the bedrock of our economy and run very efficiently with little waste) and the mega-corporations (who operate in terms of increasing the perceived value of their stock rather then the actual profit of the company based on good products made efficiently). The second part is what needs the most regulation (to avoid collusion, monopolies, etc. etc.). BTW most Reagan right wing republican economists would totally agree with you I think (my economy teacher at UF was actually called weekly by Reagan during his last administration, and he basically agreed with all your points).

P&P you ol' capitalist you. :wink:

P&P

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:02 pm
by Ska
P&P----the laws put into place allowed groups a way to threaten lawsuits if those who were not qualified were not given access to loans.

How were bank practices of not loaning to those who did not qualify racist? Banks were palced into a position where leftist politicians threatened them if they did not obey----leading to the present situation.

Barney Frank and other democrats are very much responsible for the bank melt-down in America.

Re: P&P

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:25 pm
by PapersAndPaychecks
Ska wrote:P&P----the laws put into place allowed groups a way to threaten lawsuits if those who were not qualified were not given access to loans.
Want to link this legislation for me?

Because I strongly doubt this law obliged banks to make loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them back. And if it did, then my memory of what it said is inaccurate.

P&P

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:10 pm
by Ska
P&P---usualy not have time to dig up links.

If can this long weekend will.

Groups lik ACORN, etc. used this legislation to threaten the banks.

Check out links today on Drudge Report concerning England's possible 61% tax rate, and possible bankruptcy. May be of interest to you.

Re: P&P

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:19 pm
by PapersAndPaychecks
Ska wrote:Check out links today on Drudge Report concerning England's possible 61% tax rate, and possible bankruptcy. May be of interest to you.
Oh, the Daily Telegraph stuff?

Think of the Daily Telegraph as Britain's answer to Fox News--a popular news source for the extreme right, with a reputation for occasional lapses of journalistic integrity.

The reliable, accurate and reasonably truthful news sources for the UK are the BBC and the Times. If neither of those is running a story, then it's creative fiction, not news.

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:03 am
by AxeMental
P&P: "Think of the Daily Telegraph as Britain's answer to Fox News".

And most of us see BBC and our own three networks as mouthpieces for the hard left. There's actually alot of hard evidence floating around for this (espl. if you look at the coverage of our last election).

So do you guys have "talk radio" or a Rush equiv.? If not I wonder why?

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:44 am
by Werral
AxeMental wrote:
And most of us see BBC and our own three networks as mouthpieces for the hard left. There's actually alot of hard evidence floating around for this (espl. if you look at the coverage of our last election).
that's because you probably have never actually read something by the hard-left: http://socialistworker.org/

"Hard left" is not the same as "to the left of you". Alos dividing everything into left and right is simply innaccurate - some issues like gun-ownership have no real parallel in Britain

For example this piece on guns - would you say it's hard-left?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 749599.stm
And it's dealing with an issue that right or left, is pretty alien to most Europeans.

The Daily Telegraph posted an article about an anti-war MP that said he was receiving bribes form Saddam Hussein. He sued and they had to cough up a lot of money: http://news.scotsman.com/georgegalloway ... 2585109.jp
Irrespective of where you stand on the ideological spectrum, a newspaper that just plain lies is hardly one you'd want to rely on for your news.

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:11 am
by TRP
AxeMental wrote: And most of us see BBC and our own three networks as mouthpieces for the hard left.
No, they're mouthpieces for the advertisers. Also, if "most of us" thought what you suggest, then they'd have to change their tune to something else just to keep their advertising dollars, because by my reckoning, most Americans are moderate.