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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:25 am
by Flambeaux
team-preston wrote:Actually, I think it's perfectly reasonable for sects within the same religion to fight over dogma and the "one true faith". How often are the gods really going to get involved? most likely rarely. They have their own issues to deal with on innumerable other planes of existance.
That makes sense until you try to reconcile it with the source of a cleric's powers. Are they divine in origin? Something else?

Certainly, if that's the kind of campaign you want to run, go for it. But I know that I don't care for much, if any, fantasy religion.

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:54 am
by team-preston
Flambeaux wrote:
team-preston wrote:Actually, I think it's perfectly reasonable for sects within the same religion to fight over dogma and the "one true faith". How often are the gods really going to get involved? most likely rarely. They have their own issues to deal with on innumerable other planes of existance.
That makes sense until you try to reconcile it with the source of a cleric's powers. Are they divine in origin? Something else?

Certainly, if that's the kind of campaign you want to run, go for it. But I know that I don't care for much, if any, fantasy religion.
I've always considered divine magic "channeling" an outside source (a divine concept that a god is tied to, not the god itself) where arcane magic is an evocation of self-power or something. External vs Internal.

If a god is bound to the concept of WAR, or Protection, or Health...then their clerics cast spells of those concepts in the name of the deity (though the deity himself isn't necissarily generating the power himself).

Where the power comes from is "behind the curtain".

Well...that's how I do it anyhow.

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:40 am
by Flambeaux
team-preston wrote:I've always considered divine magic "channeling" an outside source (a divine concept that a god is tied to, not the god itself) where arcane magic is an evocation of self-power or something. External vs Internal.
My understanding of Vancian magic is that it is fundamentally Other and exterior to the wizard. If it's internal, then the spell point and 4e type systems make more sense than the spells/day/level & memorization elements so integral to D&D.

But I suspect we're getting way OT here.
/threadjack

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:02 pm
by rogatny
Vance's magic seems to be a series of rituals that bind some sort of extra-dimensional being to do some sort of task for you.

Equally important to AD&D's system, but often forgotten are the Harold Shea stories by de Camp & Pratt, particularly "Tower of Iron" (1941). These are the stories that introduced the VSM components of magic. In these stories, magic is the science of a particular universe. Adding words to movement to materials resulted in a reaction in that world the same way that adding certain chemicals together at the proper temperature would result in a reaction in our world. It's quite specific that magic in one universe isn't going to act the same way as in another. (Something Gary alludes to in the DMG, suggesting magic and spells should work differently in other planes of existance.)

Gary's writing in the DMG and elsewhere seemed to envision the incantations channelling the negative and positive material planes.

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:20 pm
by AxeMental
rogatny wrote:Vance's magic seems to be a series of rituals that bind some sort of extra-dimensional being to do some sort of task for you.

Equally important to AD&D's system, but often forgotten are the Harold Shea stories by de Camp & Pratt, particularly "Tower of Iron" (1941). These are the stories that introduced the VSM components of magic. In these stories, magic is the science of a particular universe. Adding words to movement to materials resulted in a reaction in that world the same way that adding certain chemicals together at the proper temperature would result in a reaction in our world. It's quite specific that magic in one universe isn't going to act the same way as in another. (Something Gary alludes to in the DMG, suggesting magic and spells should work differently in other planes of existance.)

Gary's writing in the DMG and elsewhere seemed to envision the incantations channelling the negative and positive material planes.
The concept of VSM dates way back though doesn't it (to the Middle agest or much earlier). Perhaps not in such a specific fashion, but "casting of spells" requires, well casting (of some sort).

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:40 am
by BonesMcCoy
Keeping in mind that I am not an active gamer and haven't played face-to-face in years, so you might want to ignore everything I say, but here's my opinions anyway:

How would you like to see religion presented?

This is D&D, it ain't RQ. If people like/want the RQ approach then they probably already play RQ. D&D tradition (and my preference) is the Deities & Demigods approach. D&D is about dungeon crawling, meeting interesting creatures and killing them and taking their stuff, religion/gods/religious practices and so on are only of importance as they relate to that. As the PCs reach higher levels they could conceivably actually fight a lower power demigod or demon lord. Such as Iuz or Zuggtmoy in Temple of Elemental Evil. Or Lolth in the GDQ series.

Exactly how much religion stuff actually finds its way into your game?

Inspirational hook at low levels. To direct intervention at higher levels. The gods scheme in the background and are the movers and shakers for large-scale events/plans in the campaign world. As the PCs reach higher level they take a more direct hand in these events. See Temple of Elemental Evil to the GDQ series. Or Gary's Gord the Rogue books.

A dizzying array of gods, demigods, and immortals or a select few?

I prefer a small number, well detailed, to use as inspiration for the campaign. Kind of like the ultimate NPCs.

Does any of it really need to make sense at all?

I think it needs to make sense. You should provide a brief overview of the world and cosmology as it really is for the DM, at least. I prefer it relatively simple and straight-forward. It's easier to understand and work with as inspiration for my campaign then.

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:41 am
by Piper
BonesMcCoy wrote:If people like/want the RQ approach then they probably already play RQ.
In my case, at least, this is a false statement. I apologize if this sounds confrontational but I could not allow that assertion to stand unchallenged.

It is entirely possible to like one aspect of a different system without actually preferring that system.

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:17 pm
by team-preston
BonesMcCoy wrote:This is D&D, it ain't RQ. If people like/want the RQ approach then they probably already play RQ. D&D tradition (and my preference) is the Deities & Demigods approach. D&D is about dungeon crawling, meeting interesting creatures and killing them and taking their stuff, religion/gods/religious practices and so on are only of importance as they relate to that.
Wow. While you can certainly play D&D anyway you like, D&D is many things to many people. I've played D&D (in a variety of versions) since 1983 and never once...no, once or twice played to "kill monsters and take their stuff". D&D has been played as a full-fledged role playing game capable of any style of play people want since it started and to call it simply a game of "kill things and take their stuff" a dumbing down of the game. That opinion is akin to what a lot of the modern "new age" and indie theorists believe D&D is, always was and only ever will be.

I for one don't buy it.

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:56 pm
by TRP
None of my characters have ever killed a god and taken its stuff. But, I'd like for it to happen.

Of course, there were the glorious victories over Asmodeus, Jubilex and Demogorgon. Not all at the same time though!! Unfortunately, they were all prime material battles and they took their stuff with them when they crawled back to the hellpits from which they crawled.

I can see Bones' point about the RQ style, but for my part, I didn't mean to imply that D&D should be turned into Glorantha where religion is the focus of the game. Kellri asked how we preferred this sort of thing presented. If there are going to be any religions at all in a D&D setting, then the what-nots and where-fors of how that religion should operate should be presented. It only comes into play, however, if the player's characters encounter the religion. Otherwise, the defeating of monsters for the enrichment of the characters is the main focus of an RPG.

// THREAD DETOUR

Also, any RPG style that claims it's not about defeating opponents and enriching characters, is not being truthful with itself. I've never come across a rpg yet where a character is supposed to start off powerful and rich and give away all of it's abilities and riches to its enemies until it's a weakling and a pauper.

The phrase "kill things and take their stuff" is a short hand description for all rpgs. No matter how much play acting occurs around the table, the point of the game is for characters to advance in some way by defeating opponents.

//BACK TO THE MAIN ROAD

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:19 pm
by Flambeaux
TheRedPriest wrote: // THREAD DETOUR

Also, any RPG style that claims it's not about defeating opponents and enriching characters, is not being truthful with itself. I've never come across a rpg yet where a character is supposed to start off powerful and rich and give away all of it's abilities and riches to its enemies until it's a weakling and a pauper.

The phrase "kill things and take their stuff" is a short hand description for all rpgs. No matter how much play acting occurs around the table, the point of the game is for characters to advance in some way by defeating opponents.

//BACK TO THE MAIN ROAD
Thank you.

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:17 pm
by Algolei
Add my vote (if desired) to Team Preston/TRP/Piper.

And no, I don't play RQ either. :P

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:26 pm
by Algolei
rogatny wrote:...the Harold Shea stories by de Camp & Pratt, particularly "Tower of Iron" (1941).
D'you mean The Castle of Iron?

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:42 pm
by Kellri
Let me weigh in, maybe reroute a little...here's a sample template for a religion/deity merging RQ, D&D, and some JG Unknown Gods style

NAME (Alignment) Major/Minor God/Goddess/Demigod of SPHERE
STATBLOCK: An inline AD&D style statblock with ability scores.
DEMEANOR: 3 adjectives describing a range of typical moods
ETHICAL OUTLOOK: A phrase describing their primary goal
CULT SIZE: Small/Medium/Large Local/Regional/Widespread Cult
CLERGY: Types and Subtypes
LAYFOLLOWERS: Classes and/or Alignments
RITES & SERVICES: #, frequency and type
HOLIDAYS & FESTIVALS: #, frequency and type
HOLY/UNHOLY SYMBOL: prose desc. + graphical example
CLERICAL VESTMENTS: color, material, form

DESCRIPTION: Note particular features/physical description of the deity, artifacts & relics associated with them and any allied groups or monsters.

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:55 am
by Algolei
I liked what 2E Forgotten Realms did with their Faith & Avatars books, although it is a lot of work. Here's an example:
Tyr
(The Even-Handed, Grimjaws, the Maimed God, the Blind Overlord, the Wounded One, the Just God)
Greater Power of Mount Celestia and Ysgard, LG

PORTFOLIO: Justice
ALIASES: Anachtyr (Calimshan)
DOMAIN NAME: Lunia/The Court and Ysgard/Asgard
SUPERIOR: None
ALLIES: Ilmater, Torm, Lathander
FOES: Mask, Tales, Bane (now dead), Bhaal (now dead), Cyric, Talona
SYMBOL: A balanced set of scales set upon the head of an upright war hammer
WOR. ALIGN.: LG, NG, LN

When he is depicted in religious art, Tyr (TEER) appears as a noble warrior missing his right hand, lost to Kezef the Chaos Hound in proving his resilience and strength of spirit. In recent years, he has been shown blinded as well, a fatality of the wrath of Ao during the Time of Troubles. Tyr’s symbol shows his nature: justice through benevolent force and armed vigilance. He opposes all beings who deal in trickery, rule-breaking, and unjust destruction or misdeeds. He is said to be a latecomer among the powers of Faerûn, appearing over a millennium ago but after most other Realms powers had established themselves. His faith is popular, as everyone knows exactly what Tyr expects his faithful to do and everyone can trust Tyrrans to be honorable, honest, lust, and righteous.

Tyr is rather enigmatic to those outside his faith. He represents such stern justice that it is difficult to see the more subtle qualities of the god. He is a courageous father figure to his faithful and struggles continually to achieve for his followers a paradisiacal state of affairs in Faerûn that he knows will never come in an imperfect world. In his more affectionate moods, he sometimes refers to his abode in Lunia as the Just House, and one senses from bun at times an odd sort of longing to want to be able to deal with troubles as one could among a perfect family: with love, courage, and the knowledge that everyone will try their best and not betray their fellows because of a special bond that all share. Unfortunately, he also knows that this will never happen, and so emits an undercurrent of stem sadness for what can never be. He is terribly protective of his priesthood, and because of this, he is more likely to manifest in some form to aid them than many other powers.

Torm and Ilmater serve Tyr, and the three deities are sometimes called the Triad.

Tyr's Avatar (Fighter 38, Cleric 25)

Tyr appears as a fearless, burly, bearded warrior in light armor who is missing his right hand. He does not disguise or bandage the stump and is always armed with a magical long sword or war hammer. His eyes are a fierce steel-gray when he first appears, but always fade away to leave black, empty sockets before he vanishes. His brow is continuously surrounded by an imperial white radiance that marks him as divine to all. He can cast spells from all spheres except the reverse forms of necromantic sphere spells. He casts all spells from the law sphere at triple normal effect in all respects and a -3 penalty to any applicable saving throws.

AC -5; MV 15; HP 231; THAC0 -10; #AT 5/2 or 2/1
Dmg 1d8+14 or 1d4+13 (long sword of sharpness+3, war hammer +3, +9 Str, +2 spec. bonus with long sword)
MR 65%; SZ L (10 feet)
STR 22, DEX 19, CON 21, INT 19, Wis 18, CHA 17
Spells P: 11/11/10/10/9/8/4
Saves PPDM 2, RSW 5, PP 4, BW 4, Sp 6

Special Att/Def: Tyr recognizes mortals of the rogue class for what they are on sight. He can also see invisible objects or people, know alignment, and detect lie at will. These three abilities are also possessed by his sword, a long sword of sharpness +3 said to have been dispensed to him by Ao or Tyr’s predecessor, who had Mystra assist in its making. His war hammer +3 works as a mace of disruption against undead creatures. He is immune to all illusion/phantasm spells and magical effects and to any sort of fear or emotion-control magic.

Other Manifestations

To denote his favor or the occurrence of important deeds, decisions, or utterances, Tyr frequently manifests as the echoing, stroke of a gong, accompanied by an exultant wordless chord sung by unseen male voices Tyr also shows his will through the image of an upright, glowing war hammer accompanied by telekenesis effects that demonstrate the god’s intent and feelings. The hammer may also move, point, strike, or emit spells to further the will of Tyr. In addition, Tyr sometimes acts through extremely obedient, intelligent, large, and well-groomed war dogs that appear out of nowhere.

The Church

CLERGY: Specialty priests
CLERGY’S ALIGN.: LG
TURN UNDEAD: SP: Yes
CMND. UNDEAD: SP: No
All specialty priests of Tyr receive religion (Faerûnian) as a bonus nonweapon proficiency.

While some paladins revere Tyr, he is most popular with the bureaucrats, judges, and merchants who make the entire system move efficiently. Worshipers of Tyr see the world in clear-cut moral terms; they like to see Faerûn firmly cleansed and ordered by laws that are evenly and diligently applied. They are not very tolerant of other world views and do not find parody, mockery, or even questions about their faith amusing. Tyr survives very well in the civilized world, and most of his temples are in larger cities. He is also worshiped on the Rock of Bral, rumored to be one of the Tears of Selûne.

Tyr had no specialty priests for over 10 years after the Time of Troubles. Sages theorize that he wished to favor none of his clergy members over the others. Recently, all clerics of Tyr received a stern vision from their god in which he stated that he had seen that other faiths were mocking the hard way of justice with their divinely granted special favors and that the Tyrran church had served nobly and struggled valiantly against the height of such odds. In reward for their perseverance under such conditions, Tyr declared that henceforth all clergy of Tyr would have special powers to aid them in their enforcement of Justice. All priests of Tyr are therefore specialty priests after the Feast of the Moon in 1369 DR.

The Church of Tyr is a highly organized, formal priesthood that maintains internal rules and a system of fortified temples. At Tyrran temples, the faithful can find lodging, fresh mounts, healing, spell aid, weapons, gear, and holy advice. If a worshiper or priest knows that she or he has stinted in service to the Just One, confession and penance are also available able. Level titles used by the clergy in recent years, in order of ascending rank, are: Acolyte of Lairs, Solemn Brother/Sister, Lawkeeper, Sword of Tyr, Hammer of Tyr, Vigilant Watcher, Just Captain, Avenger, Master Avenger, Abbot, High Lord Abbot, High Avenger, Knight Commander, Hammer Lord, Defender of Justice, and Keeper of the Balance. Maverick titles are few indeed, as this is a closely regulated priesthood.

Dogma: Novices of Tyr are charged to: “Reveal the truth, punish the guilty, right the wrong, and be always true and just in your actions.” Tyr and his followers are devoted to the cause of justice, to the righting of wrongs and the deliverance of just vengeance. This is not necessarily equality or fairness, as some make the maimed god out to represent, but rather the discovery of truth and the punishment of the guilty. Tyrrans tend to be stiff-necked about theology and to see matters in black and white terms.

Clergy of Tyr are sworn to uphold the law wherever they go, and to punish those wronged under the law. They are to keep complete records of their own rulings, deeds, and decisions. Through these records, a priest’s errors can be corrected, his or her grasp of the laws of all lands can grow and flourish, and lawbreakers can be identified by others. No known injustice done by a Tyrran priest must go unbalanced. Priests of Tyr should also always be vigilant in their observations and anticipations, seeking to see what forces and which beings intend or will cause injustices and threaten law and order in the future. They should then act to prevent such challenges to justice in coming to pass. In short: Abide by the laws, and let no others break them. Mete out punishment where lawbreaking occurs.

Day-to-Day Activities: Priests of Tyr serve as judge, jury, and executioner in wilderness areas where there is no law hut that of the sword. When doing so, their code cleaves fairly close to “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,” but does adhere to common trade custom leavened by “the mercy of ignorance.” This last means that if a being is truly ignorant of the proper behavior, minor transgressions can be forgiven once with a warning, an explanation of the proper law—and a record of the warning being written down in the priest’s Book of Lawgiving for later distribution to other Tyrrans so that the particular being will not be forgiven a second time.

In civilized areas, Tyrrans (inevitably called “tyrants” behind their backs by nonbelievers) become legal experts and serve as the lawyers of Faerûn by dispensing advice and “speaking for” accused persons in trials. The fees they charge go to the Church of Tyr.

Tyrrans often go about lecturing others on their shortcomings as to following laws, rules, and regulations, but they also serve to fearlessly take complaints about such formalities to the authorities who make such rules. No Tyrran will enforce a law that contradicts other laws or can be shown to be unjust. Note the concern IS not that it is unfair, but unjust — defined in the Tyrran church as out of compliance with the principles and definition adhered to by other laws in the body of legal doctrine of which it is a part. Priests of Tyr also have the duty of delivering just vengeance as punishment on the part of those who cannot do it themselves. Tyrrans undertake formal missions to do this, making promises to those to be avenged and forcing open confrontations with those the vengeance is to be visited upon, rather than working behind the scenes or employing intrigue.

Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: The priesthood of Tyr follows a monthly cycle of high rituals, beginning with Seeing Justice on the first day of each month, the Maiming on the thirteenth day of the month, and the Blinding on the twenty-second day of each month. These major rituals involve chanted prayers, thunderously sung hymns to the god, and conjured illusions: a gigantic war hammer that glows blinding white hanging over the heads of the congregation at Seeing Justice; at the Maiming, a gigantic right hand that bursts into view above the congregation surrounded by a nimbus of burning blood, then tumbles away into darkness and fades from view; and two eyes that burst into fountains of flaming tears until they have entirely spilled away and are gone at the Blinding. Early in the ceremony of the Blinding, symbolic blindfolds of diaphanous damask are bound over the eyes of the celebrants by clergy to remind the worshipers of Tyr’s blindness.

In addition to the high rituals, Tyrrans celebrate daily rituals of prayer to the god, which take the form of a sung invocation, a series of responsive prayers led by a senior cleric, a short sermon of instruction or reading of wisdom from the Sacred Judgments of Tyr, and a rousing closing anthem. In temples and abbeys dedicated to the god, such rituals are celebrated every two hours around the clock, with the most important offices taking place at dawn, highsun (noon), the equivalent of six o’clock, and the equivalent of nine o’clock. The dawn ritual, The Awakening, is a gentle, uplifting renewal of faith. The noonday ritual, the Hammer at Highsun, is a stirring, exultant expression of the church’s vigilance and martial might. The evenfeast ritual, High Justice, is a stern, proud celebration of Tyr’s commandments and the church’s purpose. The evening ritual, the Remembrance of the Just Fallen, is a haunting, softly chanted reverence for those who have laid down their lives for justice, both inside and outside the faith—a ritual of quiet dignity and respect that always leaves many witnesses, even those who do not follow Tyr, in tears.

Major Centers of Worship: The Fortress Faithful in Tethyr, south of Zazesspur, is probably the most important temple of Tyr at the moment, as clergy of the Just God are converging on it to help restore law and order to war-torn Tethyr. They work in large, well-armed patrols sent out of the castle-abbey.

More holy, older, and supreme in the well-ordered hierarchy of the church of Tyr, however, is the House of Tyr’s Hand in Milvarune, in Thesk. The House is the home of the Just Knights, heavy cavalry whose gleaming armor and lowered lances are the last sights many an invading warrior of Thay has seen. Some sages have called this superb army “the Simbul’s least likely yet staunchest allies” because of their efficiency in hurling back Thayan armies over the years.

Also of note is the one known Tyrran temple in Realmspace not on the surface of Abeir-Toril. The Tyrran church on Bra1 (one of the Tears of Selûne) is known as the Pantheist Temple of Tyr. Its clergy and ceremonies conform to the standards of the Torilian faith, but its priests worship Tyr as a warrior god as well one of justice. They consider Tyr the patron of all good warriors. Pantheistic priests of Tyr recognize any lawful good deity of justice or war as an avatar of their deity and often gain access to spells in many crystal spheres that do not know Tyr by that name. As a deity of justice, Tyr is not very popular in Bral, which is known as a pirate haven. The priests of the temple feel obligated to take on crime and injustice wherever they find it, and this has led to several small, crusading wars. Priests of Tyr and lawful good warriors from any crystal sphere find a warm welcome at the Pantheist Temple of Tyr, although they may have a hard time adjusting to the idea promoted here that Tyr goes by different names in different places.

Affiliated Orders: The church of Tyr has many affiliated knightly orders. Individual temples often have special orders or companies attached to them or supported by them, such as the Just Knights of the House of Tyr’s Hand in Milvarune, mentioned above. Two church-sponsored orders of paladins are the Knights of Holy Judgment and the Knights of the Merciful Sword. The first order tends to attract those who emphasize the “lawful” in their alignment, and the second the “good.” Knights from either order may join an elite order of paladins (of 7th or greater experience level) known as the Hammers of Grimjaws.

To join the Hammers, a paladin must be nominated by a member of the Hammers, and his or her nomination must be seconded by a senior priest of Tyr. If both these requirements are met, she or he must stand vigil in the holy sanctuary of a temple of Tyr all night. If the paladin is judged worthy by Tyr, Tyr sends the paladin a vision of his war hammer. If no vision appears, the paladin is deemed yet too inexperienced, but not a failure, and may he nominated again after some time has passed. If Tyr sends a vision of his sword, the paladin has knowingly or unknowingly failed Tyr in some way and must immediately complete a quest to atone. If the quest is completed, Tyr is pleased and forgives, and the knight is admitted into the Hammers. There is no quitting a quest under these conditions; either the paladin succeeds or dies trying.

Priestly Vestments: The vestments of Tyr are blue and purple robes with a white sash. A white glove or gauntlet is worn on the left hand and a black one on the right to symbolize the loss of the god’s right hand.

Adventuring Garb: For everyday use, most priests of Tyr wear armor or practical clothing adorned on the shoulders and back with the symbol of the hammer and scales of Tyr.

Specialty Priests (Holy Justices)
REQUIREMENTS: Strength 9, Wisdom 9
PRIME REQ.: Strength, Wisdom
ALIGNMENT: LG
WEAPONS: All bludgeoning weapons, long sword, and bastard sword
ARMOR: Any
MAJOR SPHERESS: All, astral, charm, combat, creation, divination, guardian, healing, law, necromantic, protection, summoning, sun, wards, war
MINOR SPHERES: Elemental
MAGICAL ITEMS: Same as clerics
REQ. PROFS: Etiquette
BONUS PROFS: Local history, ancient history (of their native land)

• Holy justices know the laws and legal codes of the land they live in and the land they were raised in (which may be two different lands). They automatically know all commonly known and uncommonly known Information within that body of law and its attendant procedures. lf asked to call to mind an incredibly obscure point of the law of their homeland or native land, they may make an ability check against their Wisdom or Intelligence, whichever is higher, to recall the point in question. They must make a similar ability check to know the common laws of other lands; to recall the uncommon legal practices or obscure legal points of order of foreign lands, this ability check is at a -3 penalty or a -6 penalty, respectively.
• Saving throws against spells or spell-like abilities from the law sphere cast by a holy justice are made at a -2 penalty.
• Holy justices are able to hold person (as the 2nd-level priest spell) once a day.
• At 3rd level, holy justices are able to cast strength of one (as the 3rd-level priest spell) once a day.
• At 5th level, holy justices are able to memory read (as the 3rd-level priest spell) once every three days and impose the need for impeding permission (as the 5th-level priest spell) on another once a tenday.
• At 7th level, holy justices are able to detect lie (as the 4th-level priest spell) at will.
• At 7th level, holy justices can make three melee attacks every two rounds.
• At 10th level, holy justices are able to impose legal thoughts (as the 6th-level priest spell) once a day.
• At 10th level, holy justices are able to speak a holy word (as the 7th-level priest spell) once a day.
• At 12th level, holy justices are able to detect invisibility (as the 2nd-level wizard spell) at will.
• At 13th level, holy justices can make two melee attacks per round.
Obviously, that's way more information than you would want to work on, but I can still pick my favourite sections out and add them to and/or modify your basic outline:

NAME (additional names and/or titles)

STATBLOCK: An inline AD&D style statblock with ability scores.

(I'd do it in a very similar manner to the 1E Deities & Demigods book)

OTHER MANIFESTATIONS
Typical omens and such, which are more commonly encountered than the actual deity. They can convey benefits, or indicate favour, direction, danger, agreement or disagreement by the deity, or they can simply comfort and assure worshippers that their deity is aware of the situation, or appreciates his/her/its followers’ concerns.

The Church
WORSHIPPERS' ALIGNMENT: The range in alignment of typical worshippers
CLERGY: Types and Subtypes
LAYFOLLOWERS: Classes and/or Alignments
RITES & SERVICES: #, frequency and type
HOLIDAYS & FESTIVALS: #, frequency and type
HOLY/UNHOLY SYMBOL: prose desc. + graphical example
CLERICAL VESTMENTS: color, material, form

Dogma: The beliefs, tenets, doctrines and sayings of the religion.

Day-to-Day Activities: Typical activities of the church: what the church does, as opposed to what the religion believes. Also, what believers and clerics of the religion are expected to tithe or donate to the church or sacrifice to the deity.

Important Ceremonies/Holy Days: Important ceremonies and major holy days.

Affiliated Orders: Types of orders affiliated with the church. Character classes of members, functions and duties of these orders and other information pertaining to their relationship to the church.

Clerical Vestments: Description of the ceremonial vestment. Differences in garb according to rank, sect, or region.

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:58 am
by AxeMental
team-preston wrote:
BonesMcCoy wrote:This is D&D, it ain't RQ. If people like/want the RQ approach then they probably already play RQ. D&D tradition (and my preference) is the Deities & Demigods approach. D&D is about dungeon crawling, meeting interesting creatures and killing them and taking their stuff, religion/gods/religious practices and so on are only of importance as they relate to that.
Wow. While you can certainly play D&D anyway you like, D&D is many things to many people. I've played D&D (in a variety of versions) since 1983 and never once...no, once or twice played to "kill monsters and take their stuff". D&D has been played as a full-fledged role playing game capable of any style of play people want since it started and to call it simply a game of "kill things and take their stuff" a dumbing down of the game. That opinion is akin to what a lot of the modern "new age" and indie theorists believe D&D is, always was and only ever will be.

I for one don't buy it.

I do. I suggest you read through all the old TSR modules with Gygax's name on them (70s and early 80s). You'll find the good doctor is correct, and see the only use for religion, or other hokey information is to give a reason for the place to exist, a reason to go their, and offer flavor to the experiance of killing stuff and getting treasure. The idea of doing "other stuff" that you alluded to in your description is fine, as long as its each character choosing to do it on his own, and its not hogging a bunch of time from the players that actually want to adventure and do meaningful stuff (and assuming the DM has the stomach for it, I wouldn't). I've actually DMed for people like this (wanting to embroil themselves into some cornball plot), they are the ones that strongly took to 2E. Regardless of how people use AD&D, its written to be played in a rather specific way with a specific point. If they don't like the game as written, more power to them in their changing it. But realize thats what they are doing.


And don't think for a second that "killing monsters and taking their stuff" (as a goal) is dumbing down. Its just the opposite, it allows the players to build the story as they go (each player creating an action packed story in their head on the fly is rather an intellectual experiance if you think about it) along rather then making them mere actors in the DMs novel. By keeping the point simple (greed or self improvement-mirroring real life), it allows the player to experiance many things that would be lost in some flowerly plot driven story (creative thinking, strategy, imagination, self determination, risk-reward dynamic etc. etc.). Gygax used the idea of self improvement or greed as the basis of the game so that it would not be stagnant. So there would be a point to it all. AD&D is first and formost a game, so it has to have a point (surviving and advancing in this case).

Remember, in the end its not about the DM, its about the players. The DM has his fun from setting up his world, and letting the players do whatever the hell they want to in it (remember he's not limiting characters to "good guys"). If you think about it, there really is no other way to get that experiance other then how Gygax did it. :wink: