Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Ancalagon wrote:How about they becoming productive citizens first and then focus on playing (A)D&D?

To tell you honestly the system isn't set up to do that, your incarceration time is ment to be a punishment not a rehab, that role falls to parole and half way housing. Honestly choosing between having inmates watching cable or playing D&D I would have to choose D&D. Having worked in Juvenile Corrections I was always amazed at the number of kids in there that would discover the joy of reading because they are removed away from cable (in the state of Florida Juvenile prisnors are not alllowed cable or even to read a local newspaper). I went to Gen Con South in 1983 and while there I met a guy who was a psychologist for the Duval County Prison system, he was using D&D as a tool in his anger management classes as a way of focusing their anger into something creative that would allow them to vent their anger. Also D&D is a social game and allot of the prison population are either terribly anti-social or have very poor skills, so a hobby that require them to use or develop these skills may be a step in the right direction to making them become productive citizens.

Stonegiant wrote:Honestly choosing between having inmates watching cable or playing D&D I would have to choose D&D.

The problem, as I understand it, with D&D (or any other game, boardgame, RPG, what have you) is that it requires the prisoners to engage in interpersonal interactions. Gambling isn't allowed in prison because it causes conflict and leads to some prisoners having influence or control over other prisoners. Gangs lead to the same thing. Unfortunately, the interpersonal interactions required by RPGs (as we're all well aware) can just as easily lead to conflict or the ability of one individual (the DM) to influence the attitudes and emotional well-being of other prisoners.

If we could arrange for prisoners to play in games run by non-criminals, with a focus on using the game therapeutically, I'd be all for it. As it stands, I doubt it's particularly healthy or beneficial to have a group of sexual predators sitting around using the D&D rules to play out their disturbed fantasies, or a group of violent criminals making characters to fight against each other only to have real violence erupt the first time someone fudges a dice roll or forgets to subtract the damage from their HP total correctly. I doubt cable TV has much to offer in the form of therapy, but at least it provides fewer causes for already disturbed people to interact in unhealthy ways.

I didnt hear of any fights in my relatives 10 years because of the game. He did say that they weren't allowed to keep any maps. dice, maps and rulebooks were okay, though.

blackprinceofmuncie wrote:

Stonegiant wrote:Honestly choosing between having inmates watching cable or playing D&D I would have to choose D&D.

The problem, as I understand it, with D&D (or any other game, boardgame, RPG, what have you) is that it requires the prisoners to engage in interpersonal interactions. Gambling isn't allowed in prison because it causes conflict and leads to some prisoners having influence or control over other prisoners. Gangs lead to the same thing. Unfortunately, the interpersonal interactions required by RPGs (as we're all well aware) can just as easily lead to conflict or the ability of one individual (the DM) to influence the attitudes and emotional well-being of other prisoners.

If we could arrange for prisoners to play in games run by non-criminals, with a focus on using the game therapeutically, I'd be all for it. As it stands, I doubt it's particularly healthy or beneficial to have a group of sexual predators sitting around using the D&D rules to play out their disturbed fantasies, or a group of violent criminals making characters to fight against each other only to have real violence erupt the first time someone fudges a dice roll or forgets to subtract the damage from their HP total correctly. I doubt cable TV has much to offer in the form of therapy, but at least it provides fewer causes for already disturbed people to interact in unhealthy ways.

I worked (briefly) as a prison guard ("correctional officer" is a stupid term). Prisoners cannot help but "engage in interpersonal interactions", you can't isolate these people from each other no matter how much you try, they can and do communicate, even in segregation.

Far too many inmates are there because of drug possession and mandantory sentencing. Try not to judge others too harshly without knowing where they are coming from.

DungeonDork wrote:I didnt hear of any fights in my relatives 10 years because of the game. He did say that they weren't allowed to keep any maps. dice, maps and rulebooks were okay, though.

Edit, maybe? What couldn't they have?

Oops sorry. Yeah we werent allowed to send maps, the guards would tear them out of the modules. they could have dice and the main books though.
If they got caught with maps they'd get in trouble. "planning an escape" etc.

What about wilderness hex maps?

Sorry for the questions, it's not like you were there or anything.

I think no maps of any kind was the rule.

mjollnir wrote:I worked (briefly) as a prison guard ("correctional officer" is a stupid term). Prisoners cannot help but "engage in interpersonal interactions", you can't isolate these people from each other no matter how much you try, they can and do communicate, even in segregation.

Far too many inmates are there because of drug possession and mandantory sentencing. Try not to judge others too harshly without knowing where they are coming from.

Hey, I'm not judging anyone. I feel bad for the guards and the guys who are there who just want to do their time and get out. That's my main problem with the way our correctional system works. There is no good way to keep the minority of really hardcore bad guys in prison from making it an ultra-dangerous place for both other prisoners and the staff.

Unfortunately, those hard cases will use almost anything (including RPGs) to attempt to manipulate and control other people. Like I said, I have nothing against the idea of prisoners playing games in a therapeutic way, and I would even agree that many D&D games that go on in prison are probably fine. I'm just pointing out that there are legitimate concerns that prison administrators have to address when deciding whether to allow games or any activity for that matter.

On many occasions I've considered trying to introduce strategy gaming at my facility. However, every time I sit down to map out how it could work, I realize that the headache (for me) wouldn't be worth it.

Still, this thread has me considering it again. I mean, I wouldn't really know if it would work w/o trying it.

Being teens, these kids' brain matter is still developing, literally (check pruning & myelinization), I think they could benefit from seeing immediate consequences, in an abstract and safe environment, to their choices.

Before I put the cart before the horse, however, I need to speak to our psychologists at work. One of our gaming crew also just received her MD in psychiatry, and I'll be tapping that resource as well.

I've wondered how basic to start. I'd considered starting with Kriegspiel and Feudal. RPGs aren't something I want to start with, but with blessings from a PhD or two around here, it's something I'd consider trying with the right kids. I'm not too concerned about the content of the RPG, because I'd be the referee, but I'd just want to be on the safe side.

There's also a drawback to trying RPGs, in that, our (non-mental health) staff may possibly view D&D as .. umm .. not Christian. W/o getting into the actual "why that is" and "that's not right" debates, let's just leave it at just "that's the way it is" here.

You might try some strategy games that dont have violent themes.

TheRedPriest wrote:I'm not too concerned about the content of the RPG, because I'd be the referee, but I'd just want to be on the safe side.

I think there's a big upside to having a responsible authority figure run a game (especially for kids who, as you point out, are still developing the long-term planning, risk-assessment and impulse control portions of their brains). The major points I can see in favor of RPGs are:

1) They teach impulse control and longterm planning. Making rash decisions leads to negative consequences. Taking time to think ahead usually leads to success.

2) They teach cooperation. Being individualistic, macho, selfish, etc. is usually much less advantageous than being a good team player who fills a certain role and prefers seeing the whole team succeed rather than having the spotlight on themselves all the time.

3) They encourage reading, language and communication skills. Communicating ideas and actions clearly enough for others to understand is absolutely necessary as a good player and those skills translate into better communication skills in school, at a job, etc.

4) They teach lateral thinking and creative problem solving. This is probably one of the most valuable things a kid who is involved with the penal system can gain from RPGs, because being able to think of multiple solutions to a problem is directly applicable to making better choices in your life. The more options you can brainstorm to reach a goal or solve a problem, the less likely you are to think that committing a crime is the only option or the best option.

If RPGs are a problem, I agree with Dungeon Dork that strategy games like Railway Baron, Diplomacy, Risk, even Chess are a great way to provide growing brains with positive input. If you ever need some "academic" support for a proposal RP, get in touch with me. I would be happy to hook you up with some research references that support the above.

blackprinceofmuncie wrote: That's my main problem with the way our correctional system works. There is no good way to keep the minority of really hardcore bad guys in prison from making it an ultra-dangerous place for both other prisoners and the staff.

Yeah there is, you kill them.

From a purely logical standpoint IMO there is no reason why these people should be tolerated in society, especially when we punish them and they overtake/manipulate the system of punishment. That should NEVER be allowed to happen. But it has

Yeah there is, you kill them.

From a purely logical standpoint IMO there is no reason why these people should be tolerated in society

The American prison system has always had violent offenders in prisons. The rise in mandatory sentencing and 3-strike laws for NON-VIOLENT crimes has meant a lot of fairly normal people get stuck in a cage with the animals. It means a disproportionate number of poor & minority offenders routinely get prison time where others do not. It leads to severe overcrowding, stress, and more violence. It's turned our prisons into Darwinian test tubes that have nothing to do with rehabilitation and everything to do with simple survival. But at least we're winning the drug war!

Kellri wrote:

Yeah there is, you kill them.

From a purely logical standpoint IMO there is no reason why these people should be tolerated in society

The American prison system has always had violent offenders in prisons. The rise in mandatory sentencing and 3-strike laws for NON-VIOLENT crimes has meant a lot of fairly normal people get stuck in a cage with the animals. It means a disproportionate number of poor & minority offenders routinely get prison time where others do not. It leads to severe overcrowding, stress, and more violence. It's turned our prisons into Darwinian test tubes that have nothing to do with rehabilitation and everything to do with simple survival. But at least we're winning the drug war!

You are preaching to the choir. I agree on that.

Our modern penal system needs to be overhauled... and we should not tolerate the brutal violent offender carrying on the same crimes in prison. IMO we kill those types when its clear they are not going to reform. We should never allow our prisons to become taken over by those sorts due to their actions inside the system.

Its real simple you go to prison and if you rape, beat, kill others while there, we kill you. Nothing fancy, 2 .45 slugs to the head and in to Mr Wu's pig pen you go.