Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Human sacrifice isn't necessarily evil if the sacrifice is perfectly willing

Ummm....kind of like Islamic suicide bombers? Aztecs? Jonestown cultists? True neutrals the lot of them.

Kellri wrote:

Human sacrifice isn't necessarily evil if the sacrifice is perfectly willing

Ummm....kind of like Islamic suicide bombers? Aztecs? Jonestown cultists? True neutrals the lot of them.

Don't break the proportions here, dude. I was talking about people who were willing to kill themselves in ritual sacrifice. I'm sure you can see the difference between those and someone who straps bombs to himself then runs into a crowded bar with the hope of killing millions.

JamesEightBitStar wrote:Human sacrifice isn't necessarily evil if the sacrifice is perfectly willing,

James, this is such patent nonsense that I'm very surprised you'd write it. Consent has nothing to do with the morality of human sacrifice, or most other actions, despite nearly 300 years of post-"Enlightenment" propaganda.

How the heck is sacrifice wrong with a willing victim? Its no different than suicide, and the most basic right all people should have is the right to decide their death.

Suicide, murder of oneself, is morally evil.

Alignment as morality -- with the terms left undefined being precisely those over which philosophers still argue after thousands of years -- struck me as a quagmire from my first major encounter with it in AD&D. (Paladins from Supplement I somehow fit in smoothly.)

I much prefer the concept of Law or Chaos indicating (as in Chainmail, IIRC) which "side" one is on in the campaign (a term of military derivation). Even with the (especially clumsy) substitution of Good and Evil in Empire of the Petal Throne, the rubrics clearly identified different political factions.

Gentlegamer wrote:Suicide, murder of oneself, is morally evil.

Why?

Please tell me there's a better reason than just "because it is."

GEORGE SPIGGOTT: Suicide's a federal offense, you know. In less enlightened times, they used to hang you for it!

JamesEightBitStar wrote:How the heck is sacrifice wrong with a willing victim? Its no different than suicide, and the most basic right all people should have is the right to decide their death.

You seriously believe that?

Flambeaux wrote:

JamesEightBitStar wrote:How the heck is sacrifice wrong with a willing victim? Its no different than suicide, and the most basic right all people should have is the right to decide their death.

You seriously believe that?

Yes and I am QUITE tired of how "shocking" that seems to be to people.

Anyone who gave the issue a moment's thought would realize this whole Suicide taboo just doesn't make sense. Moreover, I'm of the mind that anyone who would deny death to someone who wants is must be more evil than the devil himself. When all else fails, you can find comfort in knowing you don't have to stay in this world anymore than you have to stay in a bad marriage.

The right to death is the ultimate insurance. It ensures that nobody has to suffer under a totalitarian regime, that nobody has to endure the pain of a crippling disease, that nobody has to live life in unsavory conditions. Why would you deny people that? Why would ANYONE whose heart is in the right place denounce it as "evil"?

Anyone who believes in Freedom, should believe in the right to take one's own life.

The question of is something good or evil in real life doesn't really transmit well to the game. Its based on supernatural and magical forces of evil (Negative planes, levels of hell etc. all assumed to exist).

If you wanted to make the arguement that suicide was evil in AD&D I suppose you could, based on the fact that the game is largely based on Western beliefs of the Medievil period. I think during that period it was considered a great sin to kill yourself.

Mythmere wrote: BTW: I also think suicide is a right, in civic terms. The government has no legitimate authority to keep me from ending my life if I choose, based on any theory of the social contract. Religion's a different matter, and suicide's forbidden by my religion, but I don't see that government has a right to stop me. Unless, maybe, I'm in military service or a similar situation. But those would be exceptions to the rule unless someone's got a pretty odd concept of how governments and individuals are supposed to interact.

I know this isn't supposed to be one of those threads...
but dammit I have to jump on this.

Matt, well put. That sums up my feelings perfectly.

Jerry

JRMapes wrote:

Mythmere wrote: BTW: I also think suicide is a right, in civic terms. The government has no legitimate authority to keep me from ending my life if I choose, based on any theory of the social contract. Religion's a different matter, and suicide's forbidden by my religion, but I don't see that government has a right to stop me. Unless, maybe, I'm in military service or a similar situation. But those would be exceptions to the rule unless someone's got a pretty odd concept of how governments and individuals are supposed to interact.

I know this isn't supposed to be one of those threads...
but dammit I have to jump on this.

Matt, well put. That sums up my feelings perfectly.

Jerry

I guess my only refute here would be those people with a responsibility to others, especially children. If anyone wants to step up and say that child would be better of in the child welfare system has never seen the joke that the child welfare system is and the damage that a parents suicide does to a child and how they would be setting those children up to follow down the same path to suicide. I also would go further and say that the govt. though could withhold this right based on proof of the person not being in their right mind at the time of the decision, it is to easy for someone suffering through clinical depression to think they want to kill themselves when the real person trapped inside really doesn't want to die. Suicide to end suffering is a topic I go back and forth on (due to my own religious beliefs), but suicide because I don't like were my life is headed, or because I am ashamed of myself, or because I am not successful enough, etc. are not legitimate reasons to kill oneself (IMO). As a survivor of an attempted suicide by myself, having lost a relative to suicide (A successful Harvard Professor), and having been friends with several people who are no longer with us because of these rash thoughts, you would need to look long and hard at this Pandora's box before you open it.

StoneGiant: "I also would go further and say that the govt. though could withhold this right based on proof of the person not being in their right mind at the time of the decision, it is to easy for someone suffering through clinical depression to think they want to kill themselves when the real person trapped inside really doesn't want to die. "

This is also how I feel. My dentist just hanged himself last week from his dining room chandelier. In person this was one of the kindest people I've met. He spent a great deal of his time doing free dental work on the poor. He was always upbeat, funny, joking around. He had a nice wife and 2 kids both under 3 years old. His brother (a dentist as well) and mom worked at the practise, and they were and are a loving supporting family. Bottom line, there was nothing wrong with this guys life. He had it made (good income, great close family, nice wife and kids).
So the suicide was a mystery. Turns out he was clinically depressed (I think also bipolar). The upbeat Dr. Jeff was just an act. Anyhow, its impossible to say when someone is in their right mind when committing suicide. Same with those mass suicides, often the result of brain washing.

I agree there are cases when suicide is not an insane option (a guy with zero chance to live dieing in pain from some horrible cancer). But for the most part its a sad and horrible thing, and it leaves the lives of everyone else that new them (espl. parents and siblings) badly damaged. I'm afraid very few people that actually commit suicide are doing so with a clear mind. As Stone Giant says, there is a person inside who doesn't really want to do it. Remember, there are chemical imbalances these people deal with we don't have.


Is suicide an evil act. I think it depends (just like killing someone can be in self defense, or murder). But for the most part, yes I think its evil. I don't think the a "God" would delight in it.

That said, if someone wanted to do it with a clear mind, thats their business. I still think its "wrong" however, from a cultural sociatal perspective. For instance we don't teach our children to kill themselves when life gets tough right?

JamesEightBitStar wrote: Anyone who gave the issue a moment's thought would realize this whole Suicide taboo just doesn't make sense. Moreover, I'm of the mind that anyone who would deny death to someone who wants is must be more evil than the devil himself. When all else fails, you can find comfort in knowing you don't have to stay in this world anymore than you have to stay in a bad marriage.

The right to death is the ultimate insurance. It ensures that nobody has to suffer under a totalitarian regime, that nobody has to endure the pain of a crippling disease, that nobody has to live life in unsavory conditions. Why would you deny people that? Why would ANYONE whose heart is in the right place denounce it as "evil"?

Anyone who believes in Freedom, should believe in the right to take one's own life.

I've refrained from saying anything, but this post is pretty much over the top. I'll preface the following with the statement that nearly every post you make seems to be in a similar sort of vein, in that you tend to actively buck "commonality" (this is mostly in your views on books, movies, etc.)

First of all, you're using a massive blanket approach to the term "suicide". Right to Life ethics has many, many interpretations to this word, and the manner in which you're using it is fairly vague. You seem to want to encompass every single act of ending one's life with suicide, but that's rather naive, if not uneducated. Secondly, it is generally held as a point of reference that "being wary with life" is a rather stupid reason for killing one's self. Yes, stupid. Rational beings do not simply give up their will to live so easily. Natural Law, divine command theory, utilitarianism, etc., all generally agree that death "just because" is weak, and immoral, regardless of who is making the decision. You give no context for your usage, and lump every single instance of self-decided death into one act. There is a huge moral difference between "pulling the plug", or euthanasia and jumping off a bridge because you hate your life. Charging into a fire to protect others, even knowing you will die, is not suicide. Nor would something like "honor-bound suicide" really be considered suicide in any conventional sense of the word. Of course, that distinction breaks down when you start comparing teleological and deontological views, so you'd have to analyze specific cases as that arise to see if they are morally permissible or not. Suicide, using the common meaning of the word, is never moral, under any system of ethics. I'm extremely curious how you arrived at your conclusions to the contrary.

One of my friends committed suicide when only a boy. There was nothing right about it. No noble sacrifice. He gave his abusive mother and absent father just one more reason to be selfish and hurt others. No escape other then shutting off the light and deciding his young eyes had seen enough of life. He missed so much because he couldn't imagine the pain of early adolescence was transient and there was so much more.
We win the game of life by surviving our circumstances, enjoying those little moments of true joy and helping others experience them as well. Killing oneself except to escape a truly hideous death is a foolish and selfish act. Ending ones self pity by suicide is pathetic.


Willing sacrifice is not evil. It isn't suicide. It is to serve a greater purpose not to end self pity. Personal sacrifice to aid others is at the core of human morality.

The suicide bomber isn't aiding others with his sacrifice he is taking from others because the feeble state of his sides position destroys it's most ardent supporters along with the enemy. Leadership somehow seldom fills the role of suicide bomber but historical and mythical heroes and kings have sacrificed themselves to aid all.