Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I find that sensoring something just for the sake of doing so says there is something wrong with it and I find that to be a very "wrong" statement. In the case of these pictures I don't see anything that makes them more than just art until a group or individual attaches an opinion to them. Of course anyone who thinks the original pictures should be covered probably thinks David should have a loincloth added. (Take my opinion, or leave it, knowing that I place no value in any society based rating system for any medium. It is not the job of government or church to raise our kids.)

Wheggi wrote: I agree that Hasbro's Dungeon and Dragons titled game should not have images or content that would be inappropriate for children. AD&D however was not designed for children, and I would oppose censoring of material for this game strictly to meet with some PC ideal. Now, I'm not talking about creating nudity for the sake of nudity, but nudity keeping in line with the source material.

I dunno about that. Sure, the first printing source books contained no age guidelines, but the orange spined books do: The ornage spined PHB says right on the cover for "ages 10 and up". AD&D might not have been specifically targetted at children, but it was definitely for them as much as anybody else.

Personally, I see no problem with exposed breasts in RPG material intended for children 10+; erotica is a different issue. Monsters with breasts says 'horrific' to me, considerably less than it says 'sexy'.

Matthew wrote:

Wheggi wrote: I agree that Hasbro's Dungeon and Dragons titled game should not have images or content that would be inappropriate for children. AD&D however was not designed for children, and I would oppose censoring of material for this game strictly to meet with some PC ideal. Now, I'm not talking about creating nudity for the sake of nudity, but nudity keeping in line with the source material.

I dunno about that. Sure, the first printing source books contained no age guidelines, but the orange spined books do: The ornage spined PHB says right on the cover for "ages 10 and up". AD&D might not have been specifically targetted at children, but it was definitely for them as much as anybody else.

Personally, I see no problem with exposed breasts in RPG material intended for children 10+; erotica is a different issue. Monsters with breasts says 'horrific' to me, considerably less than it says 'sexy'.

The 70s and 80s used to be alot more permissive. These days we spoil and over protect our kids.

I was 13 looking at the first edition books, and well .... I LOVED THEM!!!

But yeah go figure why? LOL.

I turned out ok.

Matthew wrote: Monsters with breasts says 'horrific' to me

I never thought about it like this. There is definitely something extra creepy when something so natural and human, be it boobs or whatever and it is attached to something so alien and in this case demonic. Almost a visual representation of a person who has lost the majority of his/her humanity and there is just enough left to be visible and taunt the normal. Creepy.

Then again I could just be over thinking this. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Matthew wrote: Monsters with breasts says 'horrific' to me, considerably less than it says 'sexy'.

Like the Boob Dragon form Retarded Animal Babies 5? LOL



It was form a AD&D themed episode, and its really funny! (dont forget to Save vs Breast Weapons at -6 )

Malcadon wrote: It was form a AD&D themed episode, and its really funny!

Heh, that was actually pretty good. Thanks for linking it!

re: fantasy boobs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfwLELcjG84

Gentlegamer wrote:re: fantasy boobs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfwLELcjG84

Thanks for the link! I had never seen that episode, but I'm a big fan of Heavy Metal. This one is a cool AMV set to Crowning of Atlantis (and it even got the lyrics in the Info).

I usually start fresh players off as typical people from the modern world, who are thrown across time and space into am alien world, where they are naked and with bodies built for a hero (sound familiar? ).

[wow, I cant even remember what this tread is about? I remember it had something to do with old-school art, but that not going to far off-topic, as Heavy Metal is old-school art! But even in a debate about Pirates vs Ninjas vs Red-shirts vs Stormtroopers, Heavy Metal is never off-topic (and such cross dimensional debates never last long, because someone would throw in Conan or the Yamato, and then everyone's ass gets pwned! ). Dont mind this texts, I'm just thinking out loud.]

Wheggi wrote: Now, I'm not talking about creating nudity for the sake of nudity, but nudity keeping in line with the source material.

Excuse me, but what source material? It's the grognards who are always to first to point out, rather emphatically, that 3E and 4E are not D&D, that they're not the descendants of D&D, that they don't have anything to do with our beloved editions, and that they're something completely different with no direct lineage in terms of spirit or sensibility. It's what we/you/whatever keep harping on about ad infinitum. In other words, we keep saying that OD&D/CD&D/1E are NOT "source material" for 4E.

But of course it looks like we're always ready to suddenly ignore that and claim the direct opposite, if that means we get to deliver another spiteful kick at the damn new editions who trample our lawn.

It's sad, really. I hate WotC and its spawn with the unreasonable and biased fury of any crusty grognard, but at least I have the decency to not contradict myself for the sake of a cheap potshot.

Premier wrote:

Wheggi wrote: Now, I'm not talking about creating nudity for the sake of nudity, but nudity keeping in line with the source material.

Excuse me, but what source material?

Nah, it's a reasonable point of view.

I mean, take Highlander 2.

Highlander 1's a pretty good film. And it's source material for Highlander 2.

Highlander 2's an utterly shit film that totally lacks all the virtues of Highlander 1, but happens to feature some of the same tropes.

That's a reasonable point of view, right?

Now replace "Highlander 2" with "3.x/4.x" and "Highlander 1" with "1e" and you've got pretty much what Wheggi's saying.

Wheggie: "I find that sensoring something just for the sake of doing so says there is something wrong with it and I find that to be a very "wrong" statement. In the case of these pictures I don't see anything that makes them more than just art until a group or individual attaches an opinion to them. Of course anyone who thinks the original pictures should be covered probably thinks David should have a loincloth added. (Take my opinion, or leave it, knowing that I place no value in any society based rating system for any medium. It is not the job of government or church to raise our kids.)"

This is a well thought out, and IMO very correct statement. And the guy comes from Left Coast to boot.

Seriously, some people should have this tattoed to their foreheads in reverse so they can read it every morning while brushing their teeth and coming their hair.

BPoM, I think the strong reactions some people are having to this topic relates to a general distaste of Political Correctness, and the effects of government and religious fanatic organizations on what companies will produce. Its not a matter of "let the market place determine its level of acceptance", its "bow down to a few religious fanatics or some government micro-managers, lest they have you closed down".

Every society has its level of cultural acceptance. And that should be voted for by the buying patterns of the masses, not dictatorship of a small few who force their beliefs onto everyone else. This is just an extension of the entire censorship debate. And that is a serious topic where ever it shows up IMO. Also, what W points out is that it is our American tradition (and law) that parents make these decisions, not govt. or forced religion. We live in a nation founded by people looking for religious and cultural freedom. It seems odd this problem of shoved down your throat PC even exists here.

As for the artwork in 4E, well that sucks and its sucking has nothing to do with nudity or no nudity.

Thanks Axe, but that was Stranger.

I'd just written a gigantic post and lost it trying to post it, so I'll sum it up here. When I said stay loyal to the source material when depicting nudity in the game, I was referring to AD&D (the new game doesn't matter to me). Stick to the pulp fiction/frazetta paintings/ancient mythology/fantasy movies as a barometer for how much and in what context to place nudity. The "source material" of Dungeons and Dragons.

Should have put a paragraph break and a little more distinction in my last post. That way Premier wouldn't have gotten all fired up.

And back on the demon: while I posted some footage of Kali as a great comparison, I was inspired to watch Clash of the Titans again last night. If someone could merge the former Harryhausen footage of Kali with this, then you'd have your perfect Type V demon!

- Wheggi

AxeMental wrote:BPoM, I think the strong reactions some people are having to this topic relates to a general distaste of Political Correctness, and the effects of government and religious fanatic organizations on what companies will produce.

Whether it's PC-motivated or not makes no difference to me. Anyone using any excuse to demand that a game rulebook contain some level of naked breats is being a little creepy, IMO. If you say "I like the old art, the new art isn't as good.", that's an opinion on art. If you say "I like the old art, the new art isn't as good because there aren't any naked demon tits." that's an opinion on creepy nerd-wank.

I wouldn't say that people should "demand" nudity in thier gaming products, but they shouldn't compromise for the sake of satiating ultra-conservatives either. If I like a little T&A in my S&S, I'm not alone. It goes with the genre, from the epics of long ago to Piers Anthony's comedic ficiton. It is not "nerd-wank", any more than playing a game where you pretend to be a dragon-slaying elf. It's just part of the S&S landscape, much like scantly clad cheerleaders are part of sports and booth girls are part of (fill the blank) conventions. In any activity that is male dominated (and D&D is) you're going to find some cheesecake. Guys are just like that.

It's the ones that don't like a little T&A that give me the creeps . . .

- Wheggi

You all sound like you would like manga.

...

Just sayin'....