am I right to feel disgruntled?

Age of Fable · Post by **Age of Fable** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:09 am

Yesterday I played a game of D&D, and my character bought a goat, mainly for whimsical reasons and because they were so cheap - but also I thought I might find a use for it.

Anyway, the goat fell victim to a monster, but it was in a very close fight, so the goat taking that blow might well have saved a character. We also ate it that night, so it acted as rations as well.

I thought that was awesome value, so I announced my plan of buying an entire herd of goats. I said we could trade them on the way if we had to, in an emergency we could slaughter and eat them, they could set off traps and take damage for us...and apparently you can train them as well.

Anyway the DM said I couldn't - he had two NPCs who were guiding us announce that they refused to travel with us if we had any goats; which didn't seem to fit either of their characters at all.

The reason seems to be that it's 'not what high fantasy heroes do' - although I'd say that folklore is full of heroes coming up with similar plans, that's not the point. I can fully accept the DM saying OK, because of all these uses they're under-priced and they're now going to cost more than the Player's Handbook says. But just not allowing them seems to be enforcing doing it the way the DM would do if he was a player.

So, am I right to feel disgruntled?

Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:32 am

I can see where your DM might not have liked the idea, especially if he's running a nice, shiny high-fantasy campaign. However, as a DM, I know I would've liked your idea; it offers all sorts of opportunities to throw sand in the gears. I'd let you do it, but since you're focusing on the advantages you can wring from the goats, I'd highlight the fact that there are some significant disadvantages, too. I'd do it through play, though.

First, there's the mundane matter of providing for the goats. Food wouldn't be hard, as long as you kept moving and were in areas with vegetation. Water might be another matter. Keeping the goats with you could be an issue, too.

Of course, talking about food brings up a very important point: goats (especially if they're tied or tethered) are going to be extremely attractive to an endless variety of toothy and dangerous predators. Just travelling through the wilderness with a bunch of goats is inviting all sorts of trouble. And if you take them into a dungeon it'd be like ringing a dinner bell. I bet they smell just wonderful...

Glgnfz · Post by **Glgnfz** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:30 am

... and your movement rate with a herd of goats wouldn't bee too high.

Arthnek · Post by **Arthnek** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:57 am

I love the goats!

Movement rate for pushing along a herd of goats would drop to about five to ten miles a day. That is just over a single hex on my campaign map. It would take you about three days to cover the ground in game it would take you to cover in one.

The goats would generate a wonderful earthy goat hair smell that would get all over your gear and the gear of your party. When you finally reached town you'd stride into a tavern smelling like a goatherd. Finding adventuring work would be hilarious. You say you want to rescue my daughter um....what is it exactly that you do again? Because you smell like you take care of goats...

Hmmm...lots of attacks by wolves anywhere beyond the immediate populated regions of a city and certainly some of the nastier creatures would be attracted for a snack. If I happened to roll that one in a billion time the local dragon was out and about looking for a meal...guess what...and forget about hiding your herd of goats which would be spotted for miles from the air.

Sleeping might be interesting with goats hanging about. They don't always all sleep all throught the night you know and they can be rather loud.

But best of all! Goats eat everything. I can't wait to have a goat stuff its head into your backpack or the backpack of your mage some night when you are so exhausted from taking care of the things you can't stay awake any longer and have the goat happily munch down your wizard's spell book...or eat your favorite pair of magic boots.

Bring on the goats!

=D

tomjscott · Post by **tomjscott** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:04 am

Having 2 NPCs say they'd refuse to travel with you if you had goats seems reasonable to me. I know if I was traveling with you I'd have the same feelings. Sacraficing goats for your own twisted benefit just seems wrong in any world, fantasy or not.

T. Foster · Post by **T. Foster** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:54 am

All of these points are excellent and should be enough that, after a session or two with the goats most players will decide they're more trouble than they're worth and get rid of them, but OTOH I can see the DM's point as well -- he doesn't want to run a group of goatherders, he wants to run a group of adventurers, and he doesn't want to have to on the spot come up with a bunch of house-rules covering how having a herd of goats in tow will affect every situation and encounter he has planned. If I had a player drop on me mid-session that he wanted to buy a herd of goats, I'd probably try to discourage him too. However, if the player mentioned it far enough in advance that I was able to give the matter some thought and apply the sorts of negative consequences mentioned in this thread I'd be more open to it...

Melan · Post by **Melan** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:53 pm

Herding goats through challenges makes for an entertaining war story - for one occasion. But in the long term, it is not the stuff of heroic fantasy. I am sure a herd of goats could even be used to make the Tomb of Horrors less dangerous; but it is a cheap solution.

WSmith · Post by **WSmith** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:00 pm

Melan wrote:I am sure a herd of goats could even be used to make the Tomb of Horrors less dangerous; but it is a cheap solution.

I have heard this too. Don't remember where, but I did.

AxeMental · Post by **AxeMental** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:25 pm

I'd LOVE for my PCs to pull something like this. I could have endless fun with a revised random encounter table. Think what kinds of monsters a herd of goat would bring. PCs wouldn't be able to get 5 miles outside civilized lands before the herd would run or be eaten.

Daniel Proctor · Post by **Daniel Proctor** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:31 pm

Goats? No.

Zombies? Hell yes!

I had an evil cleric character who would sometimes animate the humanoids the group killed, to send them forward to spring traps and fight monsters. In one adventure I accumulated maybe 20+ zombies, and would send them ahead. Much chaos (and fun) ensued.

jgbrowning · Post by **jgbrowning** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:58 pm

Disgruntled or not, I'm chuckling...

joe b.

geneweigel · Post by **geneweigel** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:58 pm

Sounds like minimalism in its worst form...

The atmosphere the DM has created, that made you buy goats to get ahead, is the kind of campaign that I've loathed for years. Its one where you can't seem to do anything and it strangely feels like you're sitting behind a guy at a coin-op video game with him saying the fighter on the screen represents you while he manipulates him around. If you take sand and whip it in some creature's face theres just a flat out "you can't do that". Heroics can't involve large amounts of units on your side...ever. Every trap is designed for whatever the party walking over its current weight. Every thief has a better chance at climbing a tree over every musclebound type. Etc., etc., Sound familiar?

This is what I call streamlining for the DM's convenience. If they're acting like this then "demote" them to player status (vote?) or leave.

And if somebody says "who's playing the cleric?" especially the DM then its definitely time to start your own campaign.

And furthermore...

AH SHADDAP!

Stonegiant · Post by **Stonegiant** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:39 pm

On a historical note DeSoto hearded swine and goats at the forefront of his army and their march from Tampa Bay up to Tennesse. They devastated the Indians with them and they did this for the simple fact that it was easier for your rations to walk for themselves on long journeys than for you to hall them yourself.

But the odor of goats is very pungent (I worked as a goathandler for medieval times dinner theater, sometime I will type up the story of me and the goat getting into a fistfight

), you can smell them as a human from aways off, I am sure every wolf, orc, direwolf, goblin, big cat, etc. in a 5 mile radius would now your position, but to me that is called a learn as you burn situation. Goats will as said before eat everything, they love leather, paper, cloth, etc. and they will not take no for an answer even when trained.

As to the idea being cheap, eh, I have always thought of D&D being about normal people doing heroic things. I don't think it is any cheaper than a Magic-User carrying a dozen plus flasks of oil to use as molotov cocktails, or even hiring zero level Man at Arms. I personally look at it as an attempt at a creative solution to common adventuring problems which it is the job of the DM to show you the folley of your ways, but thats me

Korgoth · Post by **Korgoth** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:31 pm

You should be so disgruntled that I'm disgruntled for you, and I don't even know you.

Until recently I lived in a sleepy Texas town where a local tradesman actually grazed his goats on the front lawn of his establishment. Said sleepy town also contained a Starbucks and a Sushi bar (with excellent hokkigai, I might add). Lesson: goats are perfectly normal things to have around.

The goats function as an alarm system, milk producer, meat producer (though using up the goat), trap detector (also uses up the goat), etc. Sounds like a very versatile tool. On the downside, they may slow your movement (this really depends on the terrain and the size of your group, realistically). Also, you can forget stealth if you have the goats around.

I don't buy the idea that the world is so chock full of monsters that you'll be blitzkrieged by Monster Group Center as soon as you set foot out of town. That sounds like knee-jerk spoilsport DMing to me. If the world were that teeming with monsters, it would be absolutely overrun.

As far as the Tomb of Horrors, I think driving goats through that dungeon is perfectly in line with the spirit of that adventure. It is designed to reward smart, judicious play and to punish players who assume that their high level character can run through the dungeon like Chuck Norris. I mean, what should the party do... voluntarily subject themselves to the traps just to be sporting to the MegaLich? "Good sportsmanship" has no place in that dungeon!

Why didn't the guys in Lord of the Rings take goats with them? Well, they wanted to be swift and stealthy. That rules out the goats. Also, they would have been goatsicles on Caradhras or starving in Moria. But if your party is making a reasonably-paced overland journey and not under the immediate threat of attack from the minions of Sauron, I don't see why you couldn't have goats.

Unless you're playing one of those "fantasy superheroes" editions. Then you're supposed to act like Wolverine or something. But if you're playing real D&D, you're supposed to be a reasonably intelligible person who is trying to cope with the perils of adventuring in a dangerous, magical world. For that you must use your wits. Without knowing the rest of the situation, it sounds like the DM might have gotten disappointed that you used your wits too effectively.

Of course, everyone knows that sheep are not only holier than goats, they're also way cuter. Which is why you shouldn't take sheep on adventures; it would be too dangerous for the poor little things. Really, could you send this into the Tomb of Horrors?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lamb_dsc06473.jpg

I thought not.

Gentlegamer · Post by **Gentlegamer** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:41 pm

Wasn't there a Knights of the Dinner Table comic almost exactly like this?