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AxeMental
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Post by AxeMental »

Q: "What's with all the laptop-hate for D&Ding? Is there really something that makes paper record-keeping better or is it just a nostalgia thing?"


Once you've tried it you realize (as Jerry mentioned) 9/10 jobs (when playing AD&D) are much more easily done with pencil/paper and refr. the books; plus when using a computer you don't have those lovely records of what you've done scratches on paper etc., laptops are impersonal and bland. They are also solitary things, dragging the user away from the social matrix so key to the AD&D experiance (some say the point of the game) when used (even if your not drifting out of the group, your players figure you are..."are we so freakin boring you have to disappear behind that f...cking thing to get your fix", we've all been there).

Another big reason to keep Laptops away from your table is that they are strong icons of technology and thus pull your imagination out of the sword and sorcery setting into a more modern one (even subconsciously). Laptops at the table are just one more thing to kill immersion (even just sitting out).

But perhaps the most important reason of all (to outlaw laptops), is that a big part of the AD&D experiance is tactile and creative. Seemingly uniportant scribbles, sketches and writings by your hand (your character sheet, the group map, etc.) act as keys or portals to your imagination, visual cues, helping you enter and stay in a state of immersion (your personal imaginary setting), and to remain focused (as distractions constantly pull you out of your imagination into the real world). The core books also tie you to the game and your imagination (when I see the DM holding the DMG the cover reminds me of the setting, where I'm supposed to be). Paper and rule book reinforce your focus and your imagination....they hold the spirit of the game (the only visual proof of whats going on in your head); the act of thinking it, the impulse running down your arm to your hand and drawing it with marks is magical. If you really had a detect magic spell and you cast it upon a table of players, the rule books, maps, PC sheets, would all glow....for they all hold the spirit and "magic" of the game. :wink:

Next time you play with a laptop at the table, pay close attention and see it for yourself.

As for writing modules, drawing dungeons, I see no problem (but thats done away from the group). But at the gaming table, paper book and pen are like a fine artists paint, pallete and canvas. Sure, you can create computer art, it can look slick and clean, but its not the same experiance during the creation process....not by a long shot.
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Post by JRMapes »

AxeMental wrote:Q: "What's with all the laptop-hate for D&Ding? Is there really something that makes paper record-keeping better or is it just a nostalgia thing?"


Another big reason to keep Laptops away from your table is that they are strong icons of technology and thus pull your imagination out of the sword and sorcery setting into a more modern one (even subconsciously). Laptops at the table are just one more thing to kill immersion (even just sitting out).

But perhaps the most important reason of all (to outlaw laptops), is that a big part of the AD&D experiance is tactile and creative. Seemingly uniportant scribbles, sketches and writings by your hand (your character sheet, the group map, etc.) act as keys or portals to your imagination, visual cues, helping you enter and stay in a state of immersion (your personal imaginary setting), and to remain focused (as distractions constantly pull you out of your imagination into the real world). The core books also tie you to the game and your imagination (when I see the DM holding the DMG the cover reminds me of the setting, where I'm supposed to be). Paper and rule book reinforce your focus and your imagination....they hold the spirit of the game (the only visual proof of whats going on in your head); the act of thinking it, the impulse running down your arm to your hand and drawing it with marks is magical. If you really had a detect magic spell and you cast it upon a table of players, the rule books, maps, PC sheets, would all glow....for they all hold the spirit and "magic" of the game. :wink:

Next time you play with a laptop at the table, pay close attention and see it for yourself.

I wanted to add more about this in my post but I couldn't articulate the way I felt about it. Well Axe, you nailed one of the biggest things that deal with this issue.

This is also why out of all these years, the primary times i have a computer at the game table is when we play Sci-Fi games - namely Traveller, CyberPunk, and Shadowrun. With those games, a computer, PDA, or other electronic game aid at the table just doesn't seem to take away from the ambiance of the game.

Great Post Axe!

I do have to admit there was this one time I had my laptop out at the game table when I was running my 1e campaign a coupel yrs ago, I had been prepping a couple handouts prior to the game and forgot to put it up... anyway about 4 hours into the game I needed to take a bathroom break and for whatever reason I clicked on a file called "holdmusic."

Dont know if you guys have heard it but it is funny as all get out. It is hold music for when the GM steps away from the table. It's about 5 MB in size but if anyone cares to have it let me know and I will send it.



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Post by JDJarvis »

readign about the n4W 4dition of "D&D" over at enworld.

I'm currently horrified. It's pretty clear to me the designers of the new edition don't know what the hell D&D is. they are talkign about removign the penalty in the game for characters that act their role...no more wizard casting his spells and havingn to resort to using a crossbow because he's all out of spells...... WHAT ?????

They have totally lost all capability to identify unique features of D&D.

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Post by Melan »

Yet it is for the better that there are no pretensions. The design goals are clear, and dare I say, honest. With the per-encounter model and (very likely) the final removal of Vancian magic, everyone can stop believing that it will one day the game will return to traditional A/D&D. No; the objective is to compete for attention time with WoW, and not to placate old-time A/D&D fans.

Let those who enjoy it, enjoy it. What does it matter as long as you have people to play other games with?

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Post by BonesMcCoy »

Wow, 4e dragons seem so cool. Check out this preview post about a fight with a 4e dragon:

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dr ... entic=true

It does 6 different things in the first round - 2 claw attacks, a tail slap, two different breath weapons and flies around to change position. All in one round. It also has an AC of 49. What the hell is that in AD&D land? AC of -29? And around 1,000 HP. Yes, that's right. 1,000 HP. How many hit die does that equal I wonder?

Christ, what nonsense! :roll:

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Post by TRP »

BonesMcCoy wrote:Wow, 4e dragons seem so cool. Check out this preview post about a fight with a 4e dragon:

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dr ... entic=true

It does 6 different things in the first round - 2 claw attacks, a tail slap, two different breath weapons and flies around to change position. All in one round. It also has an AC of 49. What the hell is that in AD&D land? AC of -29? And around 1,000 HP. Yes, that's right. 1,000 HP. How many hit die does that equal I wonder?

Christ, what nonsense! :roll:
Okay, now it's the players' turn. The fighter charges the dragon and inflicts over 500 points of damage upon the beast! The dragon again breathes fire as yet another free action for a 2nd use of the same breath weapon in the same round.

Sheesh. These inflated numbers remind me of what happened to pinball games beginning in the late '70s. Score inflation for no reason. Previously, you're doing damned well to score a couple of thousand points in a game of pinball, then suddenly each little ding, whirrrr and buzz is racking up a few thousand points each, and now you're scoring in the hundreds of thousands, if not over a million! Silly, it's the same game and the same skill. Just because you're scoring 574,000 points on the new machine today, doesn't mean you're any better than when you scored 5,740 points yesterday.

This one goes to 11. Indeed.

Melan's got it just right. In fact, WoTC is doing us a favor with this speshul edishun 4, because now there really is no need to discuss this new game of theirs. No need to say how much this version of D&D sucks, cause it's now unrecognizable.
Last edited by TRP on Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JDJarvis »

BonesMcCoy wrote:It also has an AC of 49. What the hell is that in AD&D land? AC of -29?

...

Christ, what nonsense! :roll:
It's about AC 0 in AD&D land assuming this fight is with 20th level 4e characters because if the eternal scale up and everythig being an equal fight in hamster wheel gaming.


It is certainly nonsense and they are certainly shooting for the WoW and evercrack players here...and will fail miserably with a slower and under special effected game.

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Post by Matthew »

TheRedPriest wrote: Okay, now it's the players' turn. The fighter charges the dragon and inflicts over 500 points of damage upon the beast!
Wizads are denying this is the case. Apparently, the battle had been going on for several Rounds (read not 500, but perhaps 50-100, is it really any better?)
Melan's got it just right. In fact, WoTC is doing us a favor with this speshul edishun 4, because now there really is no need to discuss this new game of theirs. No need to say how much this version of D&D sucks, cause it's now unrecognizable.
Agreed. If it really does become unrecognisable it can only raise the profile of AD&D.
Last edited by Matthew on Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by thedungeondelver »

This isn't even remotely D&D.

This is some board game they've stuck the D&D name on.
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Post by Mythmere »

I do have one hope for 4e, and that's if the game has short stat blocks. I can't even read 3e stuff because the creative material is utterly hidden in vast stat blocks. If 4e rules/stats take up less page count than 3e, the material might become usable for idea-mining.

I doubt it, just because the business model of 3e+ has been very careful to make everything salable to players as well as DMs, and that means pages of rules-material rather than actual creative material.

But other than that I have no hopes for this edition. It's comfortable that it's apparently so far removed from real D&D that there's no point in even thinking about it as D&D any more.

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Post by SightblinderX »

Yeah, I have other systems (BESM, MSH, SAS, etc) for crazy-power level gaming....that I feel are superior. I'll stick with them for that, and real D&D for D&D...
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Post by northrundicandus »

Trying to compete head-to-head with World of Warcraft is stupid for Wizards of the Coast. You're not going to win. Out of curiosity, I signed up for a 10 day free trial for WoW so I wouldn’t be talking out my ass, and sure enough, it is a fun game - with the right people. But it is NOT D&D. It's a MUD, despite all the purty graphics and its quest system. Your characters get neato kewl power-ups that make sense in a video game and a MUD. Blizzard was smart in that they actually reward casual play – by giving you XP bonuses if you don’t spend all day playing the thing like an out-of-work bum living in mommy’s basement. But again – WoW is not D&D. Calling it an RPG is a massive stretch. Blizzard software is bringing in at least $90 Million a month of subscription fees. Even with the declining dollar, that ain't bad. Wizards of the Coast must be drooling to have a slice of that pie. But I don't think they are going to see it.

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Post by Gentlegamer »

northrundicandus wrote:Out of curiosity, I signed up for a 10 day free trial for WoW so I wouldn’t be talking out my ass, and sure enough, it is a fun game - with the right people.
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northrundicandus wrote:if you don’t spend all day playing the thing like an out-of-work bum living in mommy’s basement.
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Post by Algolei »

JDJarvis wrote:the eternal scale up
Ah, yes. If they can avoid that, it would be an incredible feat.

Check out the average hit points of Hill Giants from 1E to 3E:

1E Hill Giant avg hp = 37.5 (8d8+[1-2])
2E Hill Giant avg hp = 55.5 (12d8+[1-2])
3E Hill Giant avg hp = 102 (12d8+48)

I doubt the progression will continue as vividly as this, but if it does...yeesh!

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Post by JDJarvis »

Algolei wrote:
JDJarvis wrote:the eternal scale up
Ah, yes. If they can avoid that, it would be an incredible feat.

Check out the average hit points of Hill Giants from 1E to 3E:

1E Hill Giant avg hp = 37.5 (8d8+[1-2])
2E Hill Giant avg hp = 55.5 (12d8+[1-2])
3E Hill Giant avg hp = 102 (12d8+48)

I doubt the progression will continue as vividly as this, but if it does...yeesh!
Funny thing is that 3e version is the weakest of the three.

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