My detect evil sense was set off the very first time I'd seen M:tG. I don't remember the exact convention, but it was the early '90s and I knew that forced collecting for gaming was bad, bad news. It was obvious, even then, that game design had slipped from gamers to entrepreneurs and corporate suits, and that slip was likely permanent. It's pretty much true of any concept. Once The Man co-opts something, he pwns it.
I'd always enjoyed card games, including UNO, Mille Borne, Nuclear War, the original SJG's Illuminati and more, but M:tG was different, and it smelled awful. A few adults were involved in M:tG, but it was predominantly played by the young and very young. The younger the player, it seemed, the more addicted they were to the game, and they grew up with the concept that this is what gaming is all about.
Now, the seeds planted in the early 90s are bearing much fruit. Can't you hear the Emperor now? "The crack must flow!"
4e seems to be here
Moderator: Falconer
I wouldn't say my "detect evil" went off but i did think it was amusing people would spend so much time nad effort on a game they could never own all of. once they started with the new editions and retirign cards i'd say then I saw the full scam. Myself i only ever bought two starters and two boosters the cgame was fun but no so much fun i felt liek spending more money on it so i never did.
When they get to all digital manuals, then it is really over. That is corportate IP weasle dream stuff there- a product they never have to finish and can engineer to deliuver as a service instead of an actual physical product so they can invest as little as possible and still charge money for the service.
i can picure the sales pitch now: " Your DMG, MM and PHb will never become obselete or get filled with erratta we edit out a year later, it can stay new forever and yet the game remains the s4me."
When they get to all digital manuals, then it is really over. That is corportate IP weasle dream stuff there- a product they never have to finish and can engineer to deliuver as a service instead of an actual physical product so they can invest as little as possible and still charge money for the service.
i can picure the sales pitch now: " Your DMG, MM and PHb will never become obselete or get filled with erratta we edit out a year later, it can stay new forever and yet the game remains the s4me."
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blackprinceofmuncie
- Uber-Grognard
- Posts: 2917
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:16 pm
In all honesty, why would they? If the game is designed to make money from people subscribing to online resources and buying subscriptions to supplement updates, why would you want the opinion of people who aren't interested in online resources period? Getting outside input is good, but you want it from your target audience, not people who you've already written off as a lost sale over 7 years ago.TheRedPriest wrote:After all, why would a game designer want an opinion from an outside of the loop perspective?
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Gentlegamer
- Veteran Member
- Posts: 300
- Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:16 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Here's the short of it: my kids are all begging me to run them through the Tower of Inverness (or the A series), and I'll do it. We will sit down, eat pizza and guzzle Mountain Dew, listen to some of my music (Rush, Yes, BOC, etc.) as well as some of their music (Atreyu (sp?), Lacuna Coil, Nightwish, more RUSH 
), cast spells, swing swords, kill critters, laugh, yell, and make memories that will last forever.
We will do this without the aid of a laptop at the table.
We will do this without having to "win over" players of other versions of the game.
We will do this without spending hundreds of dollars on new books, minitures and online subscription fees.
4E doesn't matter. D&D as we know it is never going to "come back". Luckily, here in my house it hasn't gone away. 4E is simply the 2E of 3E. Not our problem.
Now I go back to contemplating umber hulks, chess boards and that giant gem that shoots soul sucking rays. You know . . . AD&D.
- Wheggi
), cast spells, swing swords, kill critters, laugh, yell, and make memories that will last forever. We will do this without the aid of a laptop at the table.
We will do this without having to "win over" players of other versions of the game.
We will do this without spending hundreds of dollars on new books, minitures and online subscription fees.
4E doesn't matter. D&D as we know it is never going to "come back". Luckily, here in my house it hasn't gone away. 4E is simply the 2E of 3E. Not our problem.
Now I go back to contemplating umber hulks, chess boards and that giant gem that shoots soul sucking rays. You know . . . AD&D.
- Wheggi
The Twisting Stair
An old school role-playing game periodical with a focus on adventure design
Stephen Colbert: “What would you do, when coming up with your character you roll six rolls of three six-sided dice to come up with your character”
Joe Magliano: “There’s a new way now where you roll 4d6 and you take away the lowest.”
Stephen Colbert: “Really? That’s for children!”
An old school role-playing game periodical with a focus on adventure design
Stephen Colbert: “What would you do, when coming up with your character you roll six rolls of three six-sided dice to come up with your character”
Joe Magliano: “There’s a new way now where you roll 4d6 and you take away the lowest.”
Stephen Colbert: “Really? That’s for children!”
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JamesEightBitStar
- Grognard
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:46 pm
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JRMapes
- Old School Games
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:41 pm
- Location: S.E. Kansas
- Contact:
I don't think it is as much "hate" as a it's just not the necessity that so many tout it to be.
Record keeping in OD&D thru even 2e is as simple or complex as you want to make it.
DMing in the same systems require at least the ability to keep organized.
With the advent of 3.x I would watch people take 2 hours pre game and longer post game to get their "record keeping" in order. This for both payer and DM. A computer became a viable tool with 3.x but still not a necessity.
I have used a computer as a DM/GM of many different game systems since 1984 either at the table or for prep and post game work. Simply because I had one and I was a lousy organizer. I was always losing notes and maps and map keys, etc.
I think what has developed here is disdain for computers at the game table because
1) they are not necessary
2) more often than not they are there just to prove that you are l33t
3) they can be a distraction - in the middle of a recent game one of our players pulled out his shiny new laptop - saying he needed to look something up on a spell when all the books were on the table in front of him. He just wanted to show off the stupid computer. After the ooo's and ah's we finally got started gaming agin 30 mins later. In another game we had 5 laptops at the table. the two dill holes at the end of the table between turns was surfing porn sites and disrupting the group. In our last game the guy with the new laptop decided he wanted to listen to some tunes wo without asking he started up his media player and cranked up the volume.
In our games I allow a DM Computer and one of the players (that i trust not to frack around) to have a computer to look stuff up online when necessary or to access my server files.
No one else is allowed to have a computer at the table. If they want they can bring one and use it pre or post game but not during.
I have enforced this by locking my wireless network. No one but the one player i trust and the DM has their computer address locked into my network security. So it is pretty pointless to have a computer at our games . We also have the rule that if you need to get a file or are bringing a file to someone then it will be done via a flash drive and either I or the other player will swap the files on the flash drive either before or after the game.
You see the BS that computers at the table has caused? This is why there is a big resentment of them at the game table. Of course if one has grown up in the computer age and knows no different then what else to be expected? I admit I am guilty of it too. I do all my prep on the computer and I am simply to cheap to print the stuff up so I work from the computer when i DM. But it can get ridiculous real fast and I fully believe that those that completely restrict computers from the game table are better off for it. Even I have cut back on my computer use at the table. Now i will only haul it out for running Traveller since its a hell of a lot easier for the computer to figure out all the goods trading rolls than to do it by hand - same for World information and world details. Used to I would have to have a separate sit down with the merchant/pilot in the group to do all the trade and cargo stuff for the game. It took too long to do in the middle of a game. With a computer I can whip out all the trading and world information , figures, details in less than a minute.
But really what is there a need for a computer to play D&D? Everything you need can be fit on one piece of paper or at most a couple note cards. the only reason I can see a DM would need one is that if he is cheap like me and doesn't want to print off his adventure or if he has a ton of home rule dice tables for crit hits or wild magic or whatever but even then it takes just as long to get the result and relay it to the player(s) as it would to roll the dice yourself. Even if the DM is running on the fly I don't see much point in it unless he is using the random dungeon generator in the back of the DMG he has the program version of it that you can download here at Knights & Knaves.
when it comes to D&D the only thing I can really see a computer becoming a handy tool for is the DM's pre-game stuff - dungeon design, generating encounters, etc. If it weren't for the World UWPs and all the rolls needed to get Trading/Selling info for Traveller I wouldn't even use a computer at the game table. I would say 99% of the RPGs out there simply dont need it. I honestly think the main reason - admittedly or not - for a computer at the game table is status or to look l33t.
JR
Record keeping in OD&D thru even 2e is as simple or complex as you want to make it.
DMing in the same systems require at least the ability to keep organized.
With the advent of 3.x I would watch people take 2 hours pre game and longer post game to get their "record keeping" in order. This for both payer and DM. A computer became a viable tool with 3.x but still not a necessity.
I have used a computer as a DM/GM of many different game systems since 1984 either at the table or for prep and post game work. Simply because I had one and I was a lousy organizer. I was always losing notes and maps and map keys, etc.
I think what has developed here is disdain for computers at the game table because
1) they are not necessary
2) more often than not they are there just to prove that you are l33t
3) they can be a distraction - in the middle of a recent game one of our players pulled out his shiny new laptop - saying he needed to look something up on a spell when all the books were on the table in front of him. He just wanted to show off the stupid computer. After the ooo's and ah's we finally got started gaming agin 30 mins later. In another game we had 5 laptops at the table. the two dill holes at the end of the table between turns was surfing porn sites and disrupting the group. In our last game the guy with the new laptop decided he wanted to listen to some tunes wo without asking he started up his media player and cranked up the volume.
In our games I allow a DM Computer and one of the players (that i trust not to frack around) to have a computer to look stuff up online when necessary or to access my server files.
No one else is allowed to have a computer at the table. If they want they can bring one and use it pre or post game but not during.
I have enforced this by locking my wireless network. No one but the one player i trust and the DM has their computer address locked into my network security. So it is pretty pointless to have a computer at our games . We also have the rule that if you need to get a file or are bringing a file to someone then it will be done via a flash drive and either I or the other player will swap the files on the flash drive either before or after the game.
You see the BS that computers at the table has caused? This is why there is a big resentment of them at the game table. Of course if one has grown up in the computer age and knows no different then what else to be expected? I admit I am guilty of it too. I do all my prep on the computer and I am simply to cheap to print the stuff up so I work from the computer when i DM. But it can get ridiculous real fast and I fully believe that those that completely restrict computers from the game table are better off for it. Even I have cut back on my computer use at the table. Now i will only haul it out for running Traveller since its a hell of a lot easier for the computer to figure out all the goods trading rolls than to do it by hand - same for World information and world details. Used to I would have to have a separate sit down with the merchant/pilot in the group to do all the trade and cargo stuff for the game. It took too long to do in the middle of a game. With a computer I can whip out all the trading and world information , figures, details in less than a minute.
But really what is there a need for a computer to play D&D? Everything you need can be fit on one piece of paper or at most a couple note cards. the only reason I can see a DM would need one is that if he is cheap like me and doesn't want to print off his adventure or if he has a ton of home rule dice tables for crit hits or wild magic or whatever but even then it takes just as long to get the result and relay it to the player(s) as it would to roll the dice yourself. Even if the DM is running on the fly I don't see much point in it unless he is using the random dungeon generator in the back of the DMG he has the program version of it that you can download here at Knights & Knaves.
when it comes to D&D the only thing I can really see a computer becoming a handy tool for is the DM's pre-game stuff - dungeon design, generating encounters, etc. If it weren't for the World UWPs and all the rolls needed to get Trading/Selling info for Traveller I wouldn't even use a computer at the game table. I would say 99% of the RPGs out there simply dont need it. I honestly think the main reason - admittedly or not - for a computer at the game table is status or to look l33t.
JR
[color=red][b]UPDATED[/b][/color] [size=75][url=http://jrmapes.livejournal.com/][b]The Web Between Worlds[/b][/url] - My LiveJournal - Personal and Gaming News.
IMTU: JR Mapes 0309 C38A975-D S tc++(**) ru+ tm+ !tn t4 tg- t20 !rtt ?t5 ge+ 3i++ c+ jt- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ kk+ hi++ as++ va dr so+ zh da++ vi+ 633
[color=yellow]TRAVELLER INFLUENCE[/color]: "No other rpg except D&D has influenced current gaming more than Classic Traveller." [i]- Kellri[/i]
[color=yellow]GROGNARD GEARHEADS[/color]:"Building anything for Traveller is a blast. Just make sure you've got a spreadsheet and a college education. Traveller is built for REAL MEN. There's none of that freeform prose for pussies you'll see in other games." [i]- Kellri[/i]
[color=yellow]THE DUNGEON GESTALT[/color] - D&D is primal fetishism. It makes relics out of old character sheets and totems out of a stack of hardback rulebooks. The dungeon crawl itself is a ritual with no obligation to make sense beyond the circle of participants. In that sense, it's a lot like a cave painting of some ancient hunt. It's a convergence of random events in a controlled setting that forms the basis of a heroic tale in the minds of the participants. Powerful and primitive social magic that can't be reliably explained but only experienced. And IMO, a much more 'real' experience than the forced plot you see in most 'storyteller' games. [i]- Kellri[/i]
[color=yellow]GAMING-Back To The Basics[/color]:"It was a helluva romp in the 70s. The choices were D&D in the white box, Traveller in the black box, or if we wanted something really bizarre, Empire of the Petal Throne in the colourful box! ...You know... it's stunning. Between them, those three games cover so much ground, everything since has been footnotes and elaborations." [i]- pyratejohn[/i]
[url=http://knights-n-knaves.com/][b]Knights & Knaves[/b][/url] OD&D/AD&D/Traveller/Battletech/
[/size]
IMTU: JR Mapes 0309 C38A975-D S tc++(**) ru+ tm+ !tn t4 tg- t20 !rtt ?t5 ge+ 3i++ c+ jt- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ kk+ hi++ as++ va dr so+ zh da++ vi+ 633
[color=yellow]TRAVELLER INFLUENCE[/color]: "No other rpg except D&D has influenced current gaming more than Classic Traveller." [i]- Kellri[/i]
[color=yellow]GROGNARD GEARHEADS[/color]:"Building anything for Traveller is a blast. Just make sure you've got a spreadsheet and a college education. Traveller is built for REAL MEN. There's none of that freeform prose for pussies you'll see in other games." [i]- Kellri[/i]
[color=yellow]THE DUNGEON GESTALT[/color] - D&D is primal fetishism. It makes relics out of old character sheets and totems out of a stack of hardback rulebooks. The dungeon crawl itself is a ritual with no obligation to make sense beyond the circle of participants. In that sense, it's a lot like a cave painting of some ancient hunt. It's a convergence of random events in a controlled setting that forms the basis of a heroic tale in the minds of the participants. Powerful and primitive social magic that can't be reliably explained but only experienced. And IMO, a much more 'real' experience than the forced plot you see in most 'storyteller' games. [i]- Kellri[/i]
[color=yellow]GAMING-Back To The Basics[/color]:"It was a helluva romp in the 70s. The choices were D&D in the white box, Traveller in the black box, or if we wanted something really bizarre, Empire of the Petal Throne in the colourful box! ...You know... it's stunning. Between them, those three games cover so much ground, everything since has been footnotes and elaborations." [i]- pyratejohn[/i]
[url=http://knights-n-knaves.com/][b]Knights & Knaves[/b][/url] OD&D/AD&D/Traveller/Battletech/
[/size]
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WSmith
- Uber-Grognard
- Posts: 1925
- Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:35 pm
- Location: People's Republic of New Jersey
While I think the video was utterly stupid, I do appreciate the part of 2003, where the guy says I "grapple the troll" which is followed by another player gasping in horror, followed by an extensive look up of grapple rules, and yet followed up by the playing saying "ah, screw it I swing my sword at the troll" which brings comfort to the other players. Been there. Done that. Reason 17 why I left 3rd edition.T. Foster wrote:Who exactly is that YouTube video supposed to appeal to?
Signature no longer required.
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Philotomy Jurament
- Admin
- Posts: 6474
- Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:28 pm
- Location: City of Dis
I sometimes use a computer for prep, but not very often, anymore. I'll use it for research while prepping, but I find that I'm much faster at preparing adventures if I use pencil and paper. I make a lot more progress, because my preparation is "looser." My key tends to be brief notes, and that works just fine. When I use a computer to prep, I tend to type out a lot more, which ends up taking longer. I suppose I could force myself to be brief on the computer, but why bother?
I find computers exceptionally valuable for talking about D&D on message boards, but I just don't like them at the gaming table. I don't like the potential for distraction, and I don't like losing the space they take up. And I don't like the "screen effect." Remember when TSR released those stupid players' screens in the 2E period? I hated the very idea, and I feel the same way about laptops. I'm less concerned about a DM laptop, but by not using one, I avoid the issue of player laptops, and I don't need one to run the game, anyway. (Even with DM screens, I prefer a "landscape" screen that is easy to see over and isn't such a wall between the DM and players.)
As far as "virtual tables," I like my D&D with books, papers, pencils, dice, and people (and refreshments!) gathered around a real table. I know some people like the virtual table thing, and I guess it's even especially appropriate for OOP gamers, where finding local players can be a problem. It's not for me, though.
I find computers exceptionally valuable for talking about D&D on message boards, but I just don't like them at the gaming table. I don't like the potential for distraction, and I don't like losing the space they take up. And I don't like the "screen effect." Remember when TSR released those stupid players' screens in the 2E period? I hated the very idea, and I feel the same way about laptops. I'm less concerned about a DM laptop, but by not using one, I avoid the issue of player laptops, and I don't need one to run the game, anyway. (Even with DM screens, I prefer a "landscape" screen that is easy to see over and isn't such a wall between the DM and players.)
As far as "virtual tables," I like my D&D with books, papers, pencils, dice, and people (and refreshments!) gathered around a real table. I know some people like the virtual table thing, and I guess it's even especially appropriate for OOP gamers, where finding local players can be a problem. It's not for me, though.
Well, when you put it like that.blackprinceofmuncie wrote:In all honesty, why would they? ... Getting outside input is good, but you want it from your target audience, not people who you've already written off as a lost sale over 7 years ago.TheRedPriest wrote:After all, why would a game designer want an opinion from an outside of the loop perspective?
It's one thing to know you've been written off, it's different to understanding that it's permanent.
"The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek." - Joseph Campbell
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JamesEightBitStar
- Grognard
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:46 pm
I think I understand the Laptop-dislike now.
The real problem with Wizards of the Coast (or whatever they call themselves now) is that they don't make games, they make licenses. Seriously, when I read up on 3e, I could just tell that they weren't really interested in selling it as a stand-alone game, but rather having it as something to license out to computer game manufacturers.
I used to be into Magic: the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh (not WOTC in the latter case but doubtless inspired by them). They're only fun until you realize that there's no skill, no strategy... its just random luck, and the players most likely to win are those who spend millions of dollars so that they have the best cards. When I learned about the stupid "you can't use cards from older sets" rule for M:TG I just totally jumped ship. The best thing about those games is that I could sell my cards on Ebay years down the road and use the money for something worthwhile (such as, say, the Yu-Gi-Oh manga, which unlike the game actually ENDS at some point).
The real problem with Wizards of the Coast (or whatever they call themselves now) is that they don't make games, they make licenses. Seriously, when I read up on 3e, I could just tell that they weren't really interested in selling it as a stand-alone game, but rather having it as something to license out to computer game manufacturers.
I used to be into Magic: the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh (not WOTC in the latter case but doubtless inspired by them). They're only fun until you realize that there's no skill, no strategy... its just random luck, and the players most likely to win are those who spend millions of dollars so that they have the best cards. When I learned about the stupid "you can't use cards from older sets" rule for M:TG I just totally jumped ship. The best thing about those games is that I could sell my cards on Ebay years down the road and use the money for something worthwhile (such as, say, the Yu-Gi-Oh manga, which unlike the game actually ENDS at some point).
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SightblinderX
- Veteran Member
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- Location: Decatur, TX, USA
- Contact:
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blackprinceofmuncie
- Uber-Grognard
- Posts: 2917
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:16 pm
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SightblinderX
- Veteran Member
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:04 am
- Location: Decatur, TX, USA
- Contact:
well, yeah...but how ironic is it that 4 shifted is $blackprinceofmuncie wrote:I still think North hit the nail on the head when he coined the term 4ron.
I mean these things are so insanely coincidental its ridiculous... IMO anyway
[b]Kensai & Professional Hero[/b]
[url=http://pub79.ezboard.com/banimalhouse87570]Animal House[/url] - ECHO & ECHO 2
[url=http://pub79.ezboard.com/banimalhouse87570]Animal House[/url] - ECHO & ECHO 2