Knights & Knaves Alehouse

In Tolkein, of course, it was the elves. What I have seen in most home brew campaigns I have come across is a similar thread; first came the elves, then came man, then came the dwarves, then came the halflings, and orcs were created through one science or another.

At least, something similar to that...

But, if elves come first, who are universally regarded as near to perfection as one can achieve, then why would the gods keep practicing to only create 'lesser races'? Seems to me they would have witnessed the glory of the elves, and stopped at that (yes, yes, I know, there's other motivations involved--but you get my jist), or perfected their creations even more, so that elves, while beautiful and all, are still 'lesser beings' to what came after.

In the Usherwood campaign setting, I am working on something like this;

First came the First Being who created the firmament. The First Being created the Second Being to order the firmament. But instead, the Second Being created animals which plundered the natural order of the First Being (i.e., consuming the plants and each other). The First Being then created Man, to reinstate order, and domesticate the animals. Man grew into many tribes. Several tribes called the Il'cris came to follow the Second Being. In time, the tribes of the Il'cris became what are now known collectively as elves.

Among Man, there came a king within a tribe who followed neither the First Being, nor the Second Being. This king's people were ostracized by the other tribes of Man and the tribes of the Il'cris (elves). The king being unhindered by following the tenants of either of the two supreme beings, eventually became empowered with divine gifts himself, and eventually became the Third Being. Eventually, this kingdom was driven from the sunlit lands by Man and Il'cris, into the dark caverns of the earth. Over time, the peoples of this kindgom became changed by the darkness they called home, some becoming twisted, and turned to dark tempers. These became known as Yyrch (orcs).

So, in my campaign world, Man came first. From Man, came elves and orcs by circumstance, and not divine design; elves being fair and beautiful, where orcs are ugly and brutal (representing the two halves of Man).

From each of these will spring the other races. For instance, dwarves, goblins, gnomes, kobolds, etc. will all derive from the common orc (orcs themselves will even grow into three unique races, but that's another topic for another day). Sprites, brownies, slyphs, etc. will all derive from elves. Halflings, gnolls, etc. will derive from Man. (Details for all this still needs to be worked out, but that's the plan.)

I'm curious, what's your evolution of races?

Kramer wrote:I'm curious, what's your evolution of races?

What the humans say

In the beginning, the gods made various failed experiments, such as elves, dwarfs, and orcs. Finally, they got it right when they made man, the newest and most perfect of their creations. Since the gods knew they could never create anything more perfect than man, they stopped.

What the elves say

In the beginning, the gods made the elves. They then tried various measures to improve on the elfin race, such as dwarfs, orcs, and humans, but none of them were as good as the elves, so they gave up.

What the dwarfs say

In the beginning, the dwarfs made the gods. The gods then tried to make dwarfs in return, but they got it wrong, hence the inferior races such as elves, orcs and humans.

What the orcs say

Yoo makin' me head hurt wiv yore talking. Yoo shut up, or me will eat yoo.

What the gnomes say

In the beginning, the dwarfs made the gods. The gnomes were watching, and they did spot all the mistakes the dwarfs were making, but dwarfs are stubborn, you know? So they made crap gods, and this world is the result. It's not the gnomes' fault, though. We did mention it.

What the halflings say

I never cared all that much for religion. Isn't it lunchtime already?

Hey PnP. Good post. You made me notice that I have been caught up in the literal explanation of races, as opposed to the individual races' interpretations of what went down. Of course each "intelligent" race would likely be convinced that their race was first, and of better 'design' than the others. Something I hadn't concidered yet. Food for thought.

The Mayan religion makes mention of several sentient species that came before mankind, IIRC the first was made of stone and the second try they were made out of wood. I think mandkind was made out of clay in this creation myth.

The Native Americans of North America have many creation myths telling of all life coming from underground. The Cherokees tell of one where the two sons of first man and first woman are playing in the forest and they come to a cave plugged with a boulder. They roll the rock out of the way and thus they release all the animals of the world to the surface and thus it bacame necessary for humans to hunt for their food, prior to that first man would push the stone aside just enough to let one or two animals loose and he would bring them back to be eaten.

Also IIRC the elves were made by the God of Tolkiens world, the Dwarves were made by the lesser god of Smithing and invention and had no lifeforce at first than the God chastised the smith god for arrogance but agreed not to destroy his creation but gave them a lifeforce and thus were born the Dwarves. Again IIRC the race of man was created by the God after the race of elves had left the realms of the immortals (their fall from grace) for the middle earth. The orcs of course were created through the coruption of the elves. I can't recall any creation myth for the Hobbits

You've got a good creation myth there Kramer keep us posted!

Kramer wrote:Of course each "intelligent" race would likely be convinced that their race was first, and of better 'design' than the others.

If the deities of the campaign world are accessible via spells and the like, I don't see why this should be. With the means of finding out the truth so readily available, why would the different intelligent races come up with competing creation myths?

dcs wrote:If the deities of the campaign world are accessible via spells and the like, I don't see why this should be. With the means of finding out the truth so readily available, why would the different intelligent races come up with competing creation myths?

Because in communication with mortals, gods tend to emphasize their own importance and power, put their own "spin" on events, speak metaphorically, and where there's no other way to avoid admitting someone else was first, lie.

The High Priests receive the word of God, and edit it to make it suitable for consumption by their priesthood -- who of course need to believe absolutely in the infallibility of God and, by extension, his High Priest.

The priests receive the word of the High Priest and then, um, interpret it to make it suitable for the lay members to hear.

Following this process, the message that reaches the populace bears very little resemblance to the truth.

Am I a really cynical man?

dcs wrote:

Kramer wrote:Of course each "intelligent" race would likely be convinced that their race was first, and of better 'design' than the others.

If the deities of the campaign world are accessible via spells and the like, I don't see why this should be. With the means of finding out the truth so readily available, why would the different intelligent races come up with competing creation myths?

...going into more detail about my pantheon, I shall expand only a little (since I still have much detailing to do;

Mortals do not have direct connection with the Three Major Gods(TM); that is Order, Chaos, and Balance. There is however a pleathora of lesser divine beings within these three spheres whom mortals pay homage to. So, their understanding of the myth of creation would be limited to their sects' teachings of those histories. And, of course, these are skewed in order to keep the huddled masses in thrawl.

In my campaign world, the only two races that count are Dwarves and Men. Elves don't count because they are a race of Faerie (along with Pixies and Brownies and such) and as such don't really belong to the world. "Giant Class" races don't count because they are monsters and abominations that Should Not Be (at least, according to the lore of the Dwarves). (According to some Dwarves, Men are abominations as well). As far as Hobbits, my categorization of them is based on this theory.

The Dwarves, therefore, are the Elder Race, and the Men the Younger, whether they were created later or evolved later or their civilization flourished later or they otherwise came later into the world is not known. The Dwarves are an ancient race that once was rather ascendant, and great in magic. Most artifacts that may be found in dungeons are of Ancient Dwarven race. That race, alas, is much diminished.

The three branches of remaining Dwarves are as follows (kind of based on C.S. Lewis's setup in Prince Caspian, which I found interesting):

White Dwarves (or Gnomes) [Faithful] - Very, very, rare. They live in secluded enclaves high in the mountains. They possess all the lore of the Ancient Dwarves and are true to their old gods. They tend to a Good alignment. White hair/beards.

Red Dwarves [Atheist] - Like the dwarfs of Arthurian legend, they live among men or in small nearby settlements, and serve as squires and merchants and such. They serve no gods and tend to a Neutral alignment. Reddish hair/beards.

Black Dwarves [Agnostic] - The only remaining Dwarven race of any real consequence, they live in great cities and fortresses beneath the mountains. They possess some of their ancient lore, but they are bitter and will serve any deity or power (barring Giant Class and Men) that they think they can use to return their race to greatness/dominance. They tend to an Evil alignment. Black hair/beards.

dcs wrote:[If the deities of the campaign world are accessible via spells and the like, I don't see why this should be. With the means of finding out the truth so readily available, why would the different intelligent races come up with competing creation myths?

Because the truth is that all of them happened exactly the way as told.

And if that doesn't make sense to you, you must be a mortal.

joe b.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:

dcs wrote:If the deities of the campaign world are accessible via spells and the like, I don't see why this should be. With the means of finding out the truth so readily available, why would the different intelligent races come up with competing creation myths?

Because in communication with mortals, gods tend to emphasize their own importance and power, put their own "spin" on events, speak metaphorically, and where there's no other way to avoid admitting someone else was first, lie.

Then there's that in some campaign settings, the Gods themselves were actually mortals once who worked their way up. Those cases ain't exactly omniscient and would probably bring into Godhood the same beliefs they held in life.