The Poles "get it".

[T. Foster]

John Milius is the same age as George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, and they were all three at USC film school together in the late 60s. The Wind and the Lion is probably newer than you think -- it was released in 1975, the same year as Jaws -- but because it's so (deliberately) old-fashioned in tone and style it feels more like the movies of 10-15 years (or more) earlier.

[thedungeondelver]

While I realize to some folks...



...it is the height of fashion to spit the word "REAGAN!" (or alternately, "THATCHER!") with the same amount of bile some might reserve for Hitler or Stal- oh, wait, no, Stalin isn't a bad guy to most of those folks, I think it might merit a slight pause to recall that frigging Solidarity had been declared a criminal organization by the Soviet government*, driven underground, its leaders put under house arrest and basically nearly set off a Warsaw intervention that would've made the Prague Spring look like a schoolyard brawl. President Reagan called the Soviets on it. He didn't ask for "detente", he didn't talk about moral relativism, he didn't go from one world leader to the next trying to build a coalition so everyone could have a cheery discussion at the next UN Security Council meeting about it.

He called the Soviets on the carpet. He stood up to them. He went on national television in this country and asked all of the United States to light a candle and remember that the Poles wanted to be free. The Poles - the people whom the Soviets had cheerfully sold to the Nazis, then invaded and murdered and deported in droves under the guise of "liberation" once the Nazis were losing, people who'd yearned after their own national identity for centuries and having finally achieved it, they watched Europe fritter it away in the name of realpolitik. The first western leader with the political ability** to do some goddamned thing about that boot stamping on the Polish face morning noon and night was Ronald Reagan.

Wanna know how serious the Soviets were about continuing to strangle Poland? Anybody remember when John Paul II was shot? Yeah, a bunch of real kidders, those Russkies.

The Poles have every right to thank Ronald Wilson Reagan for standing firm beside them.

*Please don't kid yourself into thinking Wojeich Jaruzelski was anything but a Soviet extension into Poland.

**Nobody wanted to listen to Churchill preach the dangers of the Soviet Union after the second world war; Italy and France were too busy trying to become parlor-pink commies on our (the Marshall Plan's) dime, and he'd been voted out of office anyway.

[Ska]

Reagan was a giant among men and I thank god he was our President during the end-times of the Cold War, such times greatly hastened by Mr. Reagan.

The Poles, recently throwing off the yoke of enslavement at the hands of the Commies, realize just what greatness Reagan stood for.

[dcs]

Communism collapsed of its own internal contradictions and has been replaced in many European countries by socialism anyway. Seems like a Pyrrhic victory at best -- just like the Cold War itself. We may have "won," but at what cost to ourselves? We still haven't gotten over the military buildup of the Cold War.

This is who the deserves a statue in Poland -- Fr. Jerzy Popiełuszko:



Reagan may have criticized the Communists from the safety of the U.S.; Fr. Popiełuszko did it from behind the Iron Curtain.

[AxeMental]

The one great thing about the Soviets were we could point to them (and by extension communism and its ugly sister socialism) as "EVIL".

Now its not so easy. And socialism in Europe and around the world is on the rise. In alot of ways it was nice to have that scape goat around.

[dcs]

In alot of ways it was nice to have that scape goat around.

It's easy to come up with new scapegoats -- Hussein, Milosevic, Hussein, Islamic terrorism, Hussein, Ahmadinejad, Hussein, bin Laden, Hussein, etc.

Yes, Communism is evil but it does not follow that Russians are or were evil. And "capitalism" is working so well in Russia that many Russians wish they were still living under Communism.

[AxeMental]

Those aren't forces of communism or socialism, so those don't work in the same way.

As for Russians failing at capitalism, no big surprise there. Its run by the remnants of the KGB and the Russian Mob (who funnel much of the money out of the country). The country was dirt poor and has almost no infrastructure. And you have a population with little knowledge about how capitalism works. When Eastern Germany got re-absorbed they had to deal with the same problems.

[Stormcrow]

Yes, Communism is evil

What makes Communism evil?

[dcs]

Yes, Communism is evil

What makes Communism evil?

The natural right to own property is not observed under Communism.

There's nothing wrong with voluntarily choosing to live in a commune.

[T. Foster]

The natural right to own property is not observed under Communism.

How is owning property a "natural right"?

[AxeMental]

Foster: "How is owning property a "natural right"?"
Well it is a natural tendency:

The first caveman that picked up a stick and in grunts indicated "this is mine, take it and die", and then proceded to beat the crap out of anyone that challanged him. Thats about as "natural" as you can get. Personal property (as opposed to communal property) is not unique to the human species, many species protect what is theirs (even predominantly communal ones). So, is the urge to own and control limited resources hard wired in or socially taught...I'd say both.

Private ownership Is one of the few "cross cultural" human behaviors that anthropologists acknowledge. The premise of Marxism, infact, was that Man would eventually throw off this natural urge to personally own in favor of communal ownership. As far as I know, there has never been one truely communist society..........ever. When such systems are studied (one such study involved a nunnery I believe...I'll have to do some digging to find it), its found that in reality individuals de facto "own" or have exclusive control of many of their favorite things (ie limited resources) be they clothing, tools etc. If someone in a communal system tries to take them there is conflict, and those who are more powerful (be it there age, their natural charisma etc.) prevail (even when such inequities are not supposed to exist. Its all about limited resources and who controls them.

As for it being a "right", that comes down to belief (and I've heard it called a "natural right" or a "God given" right...depends on your point of view). Our nation was founded on the principles that God has granted all men (not just Americans) certain rights or freedoms (private property is one of them). Because these rights are granted by God, they can't be taken away by governments (men). This is a very important belief and is something that comes down to faith or philosophy.

Many non-Christain religions believe this very same thing (their diety(s) too have granted man (perhaps not all men) similar rights). Even some athiest believe this. That humans are due rights because they are human (for example, slavery is wrong, even if a government says it is right).

So...dcs is correct. Communism is "Evil" to those who believe that man has been granted the right of owning and controlling property. And in our country, thats most of us. Even some athiest believe in the concept of evil, and would throw communism in that basket (as it removes the natural tendencies for a person to own).

Capitalism, and private property actually fall in line with our genetic hardwiring. A humand doesn't have to struggle to want to keep his favorite things and to want more or better taseting food, a better shelter, and a better mate. Thats natural. (perhaps thats what dcs meant).

Thats not to say we don't also have hard wiring for sharing, as this too is a cross-cultural trait. And as dcs pointed out, there is nothing wrong volunteerly giving up your belonging to a commune. Just don't try to force others to.

[T. Foster]

I don't disagree that the desire to own private property is a deeply ingrained natural tendency, which is why attempts to upset that status quo have historically met with such strong resistance, but I remain unconvinced that it is or necessarily should be a natural right, and that a society that didn't include that right would be "evil" for that reason alone.

[Ermanaric]

I'll quote John Locke from his work, The Two Treatises of Government (1690) : "Government has no other end but the preservation of property."

Much like the monarchy to which Locke criticized*, communism is also a political system that veiws property as something exclusively created by the government.

* (To what extent Locke's proclamation was in support of the English Revolution of 1688 is a matter of debate.)

[AxeMental]

So what is a "right" and what is "evil"? And can a system be "evil" and the people who support it still "good"? I personally think a system can be evil. Certainly the institute of Slavery was evil; yet not all the people who supported it were evil. I think its a matter of being "aware" and "intention". Then there is "nec. evil". Like killing a person during war.

Foster: "but I remain unconvinced that it is or necessarily should be a natural right, and that a society that didn't include that right would be "evil" for that reason alone."

"Natural right" is a bit of a contradiction in terms (nature (the animal kingdom) is valueless, while rights are based in values (something only humans have). I agree that a society is not evil for any 1 reason. Certainly slavery in the old South was evil, yet the overall society was good. Every society has good and bad. You have to look at the net sum to determine "overall" if it is good or evil. I think communism does allow a society to drift toward overall "evil" more easily the capitalism.

[TRP]

The inability to own property is, of itself, not evil. If a person wishes to leave a commune that prohibits property ownership is denied, imprisoned or worse for trying to do so, then that is evil. That was the evil of the Soviet Union.

Forced communism, or any other form of government, is not only evil, it's just plain stupid. The USSR didn't even last a single century. China isn't making it either w/o adapting.