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Do you consider goblins and orcs the same race, or is the goblin race of goblin-hobgoblin-bugbear separate from the race of orcs?

for me they are two branches of the same tree...


gobs/hobs/buggies vs. orcs

Totally separate species with no relations at all in all my games.

In "canonical" AD&D I think it's pretty clear they're separate races -- goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears all look similar, whereas orcs look like pigs -- but in more freewheeling OD&D I tend to follow Tolkein's lead and consider them different varieties of the same race -- goblins represent the goblins from The Hobbit, orcs the standard orcs from LotR, hobgoblins uruk-hai; I can't recall anything equivalent to a bugbear in Tolkein...

In my homebrewed / houseruled campaign Kobolds, Goblins, Hobgoblins and Orcs are all Sub Races of the same Race. The terms Kobold and Goblin are words that are in all probability derived from the same Greek Root Word Kobalos, which means Mischievious Spirit. Tolkien uses Goblin and Orc often interchangably and occasionally uses Hobgoblin in place of Orc; Uruk is itself just his Elvish word for Orc. Orog is another related term, which appears alongside the Orc entry for 2.x. These are more clearly 'Great Orcs' of the Uruk type. Etymologically and conceptually they are all related terms, but in most published D&D material they are most usually depicted as seperate races.

That said, if you recall the 2.x PHB illustration of what appear to be Orcs (being pig-like) storming a fortification it is noticeable that there are Kobold / Goblin size individuals who otherwise look the same as their larger companions... so there may be some precedence for Goblins and Orcs being more closely related in D&D...

Well, I think ultimately all giant class monsters (bugbear, cyclopskin, dune stalker, ettin, flind, giant, gibberling, gnoll, goblin, grimlock, hobgoblin, kobold, meazel, norker, ogre, ogre mage, ogrillon, orc, quaggoth, tasloi, troll, xvart) are supposed to be related. I call them the Goblinoid races in my campaign.

That said, they're probably as closely related to humans and demi-humans as to each other. I see goblins and orcs being as different from each other as elves and dwarves. So it kind of depends on your approach.

Dragonlance takes the stance that Ogre was one of the original races and that all those other humanoid races are degenerate forms of them.

Tolkien's goblins are corruptions of elves (depends on which point in his life you ask him, but that is what made it into LotR), with hobgoblins being sort of half-goblin, half-man. Tolkien trolls (D&D ogres) are corruptions of ents.

Of course, for Tolkien, goblins and orcs were the same thing (except possibly in The Hobbit). I see D&D orcs being more like the pig-snouted Gamorreans from Jabba's palace, and D&D goblins being like the ones from The Hobbit. So, not particularly related. Goblins are related to hobgoblins, bugbears, and norkers, of course. I believe gnolls are supposed to be a cross between gnomes and trolls, but I'm not quite clear where they get their dog-heads! Something to do with kobolds. Regards.

"Uruk" is a word in the Black Speech. In Elvish it is "orch."

Actually, in Sindarin (Grey Elven) it is orch (pl. yrch) and in Quenya it is urko ((pl. urqui), but yes it is in the Black Speech that Orc truly becomes uruk. All are clearly descended from the same Elvish root. I admit, though, that it was slightly misleading of me to say Uruk is the Elvish word for Orc; what I should have said is that it comes from the Elvish.

Hobgoblin is actually a term used by Tolkien for larger Goblins, rather than Half Orcs (though it is possible to argue that larger Orcs are the result of breeding Orcs with Men). Orcs and Goblins are the same thing, both in The Hobbit and in The Lord of the Rings. It is all made clear in Tolkien's preface to The Hobbit when he remarks

(2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated as goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures...

Trolls are not corruptions of Ents, but were made by the Enemy in mockery of them.

Matthew wrote:Orcs and Goblins are the same thing, both in The Hobbit and in The Lord of the Rings. It is all made clear in Tolkien's preface to The Hobbit when he remarks

(2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated as goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures...

That preface postdates The Lord of the Rings. This and many other changes to The Hobbit were made to bring it more in-line with The Lord of the Rings. I guess I should have said in the pre-LotR Hobbit it mentions goblins and hobgoblins and orcs as all potentially different races.

Hobgoblin is actually a term used by Tolkien for larger Goblins, rather than Half Orcs (though it is possible to argue that larger Orcs are the result of breeding Orcs with Men).

One of the appendices of The Lord of the Rings pretty straight-forwardly expains that the greater Orcs are produced by intermixing Mannish blood. If I had my books I'd quote it. Also, while Uruk is the Black Speech translation for Orc, Uruk specifically refers to the greater Orcs while Snaga (slave) is a lesser Orc. Uruk-Hai is the plural of Uruk in the Black Speech. Uruks is the plural of Uruk (greater Orc) in Westron. Regards.

In AD&D they are different. They have different stats and are listed as such in the MM.

In Tolkiens works they are also different (I believe they refer to each seperately in the LOTR) (though I'm sure Storm Crow could probably set us straight on that as he seems to be a bonifide Tolkienite.)

In real legends, I have no idea.

In OD&D; kobolds, goblins, orcs and hobgoblins were just different sizes for the same race of ugly men-types. Ogres/giants being somewhat related. Gnolls were described as being half gnome, half troll, but were given the appearance of hyenas, because Gary wanted hyena-men in his campaign. Trolls (in D&D) come from the fairytale "Three Hearts and Three Lions".
The only reason the first four races look different in later games is because of the artistic licence various illustrators took with Gary's descriptions. It morphed from there into Warhammer's look (IMHO) to form what we have today.

Falconer wrote:That preface postdates The Lord of the Rings. This and many other changes to The Hobbit were made to bring it more in-line with The Lord of the Rings. I guess I should have said in the pre-LotR Hobbit it mentions goblins and hobgoblins and orcs as all potentially different races.

Sounds plausible. I certainly had in mind only the version most in line with The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. However, it was my understanding that even in earlier versions of the text it was fairly clear that Goblin, Hobgoblin and Orc were the same and that Goblin and Hobgoblin were the only terms used in the original draft. One of the few instances Orc is used at all is in the naming of Gandalf's Sword Orcrist, which is translated Goblin Cleaver.

Falconer wrote:One of the appendices of The Lord of the Rings pretty straight-forwardly expains that the greater Orcs are produced by intermixing Mannish blood. If I had my books I'd quote it. Also, while Uruk is the Black Speech translation for Orc, Uruk specifically refers to the greater Orcs while Snaga (slave) is a lesser Orc. Uruk-Hai is the plural of Uruk in the Black Speech. Uruks is the plural of Uruk (greater Orc) in Westron. Regards.

I don't think that information actually occurs in the Appendices, but rather in the story (but I would be interested if you could point to where it might otherwise be found). The origin of the Uruk-hai is fairly unclear; they may be the result of mixing Mannish blood with Orcs. That certainly appears to have been done, as in the case of Saruman's Half Orc servants who take over the Shire, but it is speculation on the part of the Characters. Tolkien does say in the Appendices that Uruk was used, as a rule, only of the Great Soldier Orcs and that lesser breeds were referred to, mainly by the Great Orcs, as Snaga. What use Uruk was put to prior to the emergence of the Great Orcs is unclear, but it would not be too improbable to suppose that it was used of all Orcs in the Black Speech until then.

Sauron devised the Black Speech in the 2nd Age, and he also devised the first Uruks in the 2nd Age. I don't recall which was first. I'll find the quote about how he made the Uruks tonight, if I can. Regards.

In European mythology Kobolds are considered helpful household spirits and IIRC the hobgoblins and bugbears are actually smaller in size than the goblins.

Hello Matthew, and welcome to the site!

It's nice to see more Brits.