Knights & Knaves Alehouse

For my own games, I view kobolds (who I dislike when depicted as little dog men), goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, and bugbears as all being offshoots of the same race. Since I like using these creatures as common mooks and minions, I've scaled the hit dice on these creatures a bit. Kobolds retain their 1-4 hit points, but goblins have a full hit die and are medium sized. Hobgoblins are medium sized per usual, but have a 1+2 hit die. Orcs have 2+2 hit dice, with bugbears having the usual 3+1.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:Hello Matthew, and welcome to the site!

It's nice to see more Brits. :D

Thanks, glad to be here...

John Stark wrote:For my own games, I view kobolds (who I dislike when depicted as little dog men), goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, and bugbears as all being offshoots of the same race. Since I like using these creatures as common mooks and minions, I've scaled the hit dice on these creatures a bit. Kobolds retain their 1-4 hit points, but goblins have a full hit die and are medium sized. Hobgoblins are medium sized per usual, but have a 1+2 hit die. Orcs have 2+2 hit dice, with bugbears having the usual 3+1.

I did something very similar when I first started customising them for my homebrewed / houseruled game; note that in 2.x Hobgoblins are actually more powerful foes than Orcs. I nearly reversed that as well. In the end, though, I removed Hobgoblins altogether and kept them only as a synonym for Orc. Uruks took the 2HD and Orogs [which also became a synonym for Bugbear] the 3HD slots respectively... otherwise I use them in a similar capacity.

John Stark wrote:For my own games, I view kobolds (who I dislike when depicted as little dog men), goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, and bugbears as all being offshoots of the same race. Since I like using these creatures as common mooks and minions, I've scaled the hit dice on these creatures a bit. Kobolds retain their 1-4 hit points, but goblins have a full hit die and are medium sized. Hobgoblins are medium sized per usual, but have a 1+2 hit die. Orcs have 2+2 hit dice, with bugbears having the usual 3+1.

*YOINK!!* I dig this idea! Might have to try this out to shake things up, particularly with the Orcs.

Matthew wrote:note that in 2.x Hobgoblins are actually more powerful foes than Orcs.

If you are referring to 2nd edition "AD&D," it should be noted that hobgoblins were more powerful than orcs in 1st edition as well (hobgoblins have a 1+1 hit die, orcs only 1).

Yes indeed I am. I think the stats are similarly arranged in OD&D as well, with the Kobold, Goblin, Orc, Hobgoblin Scale, but I don't have any 0.x or 1.x Monster stats to hand, so I went with the safe bet (I originally wrote 1.x, but then realised I couldn't be sure...). So, that begs the question, what motivated you to put Orcs higher up on the Hit Dice Scale than Hobgoblins?

Matthew wrote:So what motivated you to put Orcs higher up on the Hit Dice Scale?

While I've been trying to keep my own campaign world more "sword & sorcery" in feel in the vein of REH's Hyboria, or Leiber's Lankhmar, I am an avid fan of Tolkien's Middle Earth and once ran an AD&D campaign in that setting (set before the LotR epic). One thing I liked about Tolkien orcs is that they seemed a challenge even to the likes of Aragorn and Gandalf (not to mention the heroes in the Silmarillion), and they seemed to vary in size, strength, cunning, fierceness, etc. throughout the various works set in Middle Earth (the orcs in the Silmarillion, the goblins in the Hobbit, the various breeds in LotR). So, I sought to emulate that degree of variance and challenge and bring that to the gaming table.

Thus, kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, and bugbears all fall under the rubric of "orcish," or "goblinoid," or perhaps just simply "enemy."

Beefing up some of the "orcish" races makes them more viable opponents for a wider spread of challenge versus relative character/party level IMO. YMMV.

Sure, but why not Kobold, Goblin, Orc, Hobgoblin, Bugbear (which I would suppose to be more in line with D&D ratings) as opposed to Kobold, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Orc, Bugbear? Not that I am complaining, I initially did much the same thing. Just a nomenclature thing?

I am absolutely on board with having some Orc type creatures with more than 1HD (as I say, Uruks and Orogs fill the 2HD and 3HD roles in my homebrew), just a matter of interest really.

Matthew wrote:Sure, but why not Kobold, Goblin, Orc, Hobgoblin, Bugbear (which I would suppose to be more in line with D&D ratings) as opposed to Kobold, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Orc, Bugbear? Not that I am complaining, I initially did much the same thing. Just a nomenclature thing?

The goblin/hobgoblin came about in my thinking because hobgoblins already (potentially) have more hit points in AD&D than goblins (1+1 for hobs, 1-7 hit points for goblins); thus, I've always viewed hobgoblins as being bigger, or stronger, or more fierce, or more skilled in combat, or whatever, than goblins. I've simply adjusted the goblin hit die up a bit (to 1 full hit die), and the hobgoblin up to 1+2, to reflect my "view." Moving orcs up to 2+2 hit dice was mostly to fill the gap between the 1+2 hobgoblin (i.e., the bigger, tougher goblin), and the 3+1 bugbear.

Also, admittedly, the Tolkien influence comes into play here as well. I see goblins or hobgoblins as though they were the whiny, weak "Moria orcs" from LotR, with the soldier orcs of Mordor as tougher and better trained "orcs," who have more hit dice because they are better armed/armored, more disciplined, etc. Bugbears I guess would be more like the Isengard Uruk-hai, fierce and larger than other breeds.

Alot of this is arbitrary, and there was no one rubric that determined the order for me. Essentially, I wanted an orcish race that had more than 1 hit die, but less than the 3+1 that bugbears get in AD&D. Orcs got the bump for whatever convoluted reason my thought processes took.

EDIT: Orog was IIRC a 2nd edition invention, which was an edition that I never played back in the day. So, that name didn't enter into my thinking at all. Even now years later, after having read through the core 2nd edition books a couple years ago, I can't say the name "orog" does much for me, so I stuck with my kobold/goblin/hobgoblin/orc/bugbear ranks.

Stonegiant wrote:In European mythology Kobolds are considered helpful household spirits and IIRC the hobgoblins and bugbears are actually smaller in size than the goblins.

"Hobgoblins" are definitely smaller than goblins as the prefix "hob-" means small.

Kobolds can be helpful but can also be mischievious.

What actually is the evidence for hob meaning 'small'? All I have ever come across is:

hobgoblin
1530, from hob "elf," from Hobbe, a variant of Rob (cf. Hick for Richard, Hodge for Rodger, etc.), short for Robin Goodfellow, elf character in Ger. folklore, + goblin.

Hobgoblins are defined as being small in folklore, but without relation to the size of Goblins, as far as I am aware. Tolkien is often quoted as saying he may have got it the wrong way round, but it does not follow that hob means small, only that the extant descriptions of Hobgoblins are of relatively small creatures. The size of supernatural creatures such as Elves, Goblins and so on are always mutable; sometimes they are smaller than Men, sometimes they are of similar stature and sometimes they are larger.

John Stark wrote:The goblin/hobgoblin came about in my thinking because hobgoblins already (potentially) have more hit points in AD&D than goblins (1+1 for hobs, 1-7 hit points for goblins); thus, I've always viewed hobgoblins as being bigger, or stronger, or more fierce, or more skilled in combat, or whatever, than goblins. I've simply adjusted the goblin hit die up a bit (to 1 full hit die), and the hobgoblin up to 1+2, to reflect my "view." Moving orcs up to 2+2 hit dice was mostly to fill the gap between the 1+2 hobgoblin (i.e., the bigger, tougher goblin), and the 3+1 bugbear.

Yes, I see. I initially went with Goblin [1 Hit Die], Orc [1+1 Hit Die], Hobgoblin [2+2 Hit Dice] and Bugbear [3+ Hit Dice].

John Stark wrote:Also, admittedly, the Tolkien influence comes into play here as well. I see goblins or hobgoblins as though they were the whiny, weak "Moria orcs" from LotR, with the soldier orcs of Mordor as tougher and better trained "orcs," who have more hit dice because they are better armed/armored, more disciplined, etc. Bugbears I guess would be more like the Isengard Uruk-hai, fierce and larger than other breeds.

Yes appropriating some of the Tolkien model, I went with Orc for the lesser breeds [1+1 Hit Die] and Hobgoblins / Uruks for the stronger [2+2 HD]. Then, Kobolds and Goblins [1-1 to 1 Hit Die] represented the truly lowly and Bugbears / Orogs the very strong [3+ Hit Dice].

John Stark wrote:Alot of this is arbitrary, and there was no one rubric that determined the order for me. Essentially, I wanted an orcish race that had more than 1 hit die, but less than the 3+1 that bugbears get in AD&D. Orcs got the bump for whatever convoluted reason my thought processes took.

Fair enough.

John Stark wrote:EDIT: Orog was IIRC a 2nd edition invention, which was an edition that I never played back in the day. So, that name didn't enter into my thinking at all. Even now years later, after having read through the core 2nd edition books a couple years ago, I can't say the name "orog" does much for me, so I stuck with my kobold/goblin/hobgoblin/orc/bugbear ranks.

No, not much for me initially either. I warmed to them a little better with the idea they were mixed with Ogre blood, but kept the nomenclature in the end because I never much liked Bugbear either...

The addition of "orogs" in 2E may be a reference back to the mention in Chainmail of "giant orcs" who fight as Armored Foot (as opposed to Heavy Foot for standard orcs) and are worth 2.5 points (as opposed to 2 points for standard orcs). Incidentally, however, these stats are identical to what CM cites for hobgoblins ("Hobgoblins fight as Armored Foot and defend as Heavy Foot. Their point value is 2 1/2" - Chainmail, 3rd edition, p. 29) so perhaps the existence of both giant orcs and hobgoblins with the same stats was deemed redundant for D&D (especially since CM also specifically mentions that orcs are "nothing more than over-grown Goblins" (p. 30)).

There is also the 2.x Light Sensitivity issue:

Kobolds, Goblins and Orcs all suffer a -1 to Attack Rolls in direct sunlight. Kobolds and Goblins have 60' Infravision (Orcs are for some reason listed without that ability, probably an oversight, as they are listed with Infravision in many other prior and subsequent publications).

Hobgoblins are specifically singled out as having no such penalty whilst retaining 60' Infravision. Bugbears have 60' Infravision and no penalty. This suggests that Hobgoblins were in all probability modelling Uruk-hai, in 2.x at least.

There is no mention in the Orog entry as to whether they suffer the Light Sensitivity penalty or have Infravision, though. They appear as leaders of Orcs [and 2HD Orcs] in City of Skulls, which suggests something about their intended role in the mid to late nineties...

Matthew wrote:What actually is the evidence for hob meaning 'small'? All I have ever come across is:

hobgoblin
1530, from hob "elf," from Hobbe, a variant of Rob (cf. Hick for Richard, Hodge for Rodger, etc.), short for Robin Goodfellow, elf character in Ger. folklore, + goblin.

Hobgoblins are defined as being small in folklore, but without relation to the size of Goblins, as far as I am aware. Tolkien is often quoted as saying he may have got it the wrong way round, but it does not follow that hob means small, only that the extant descriptions of Hobgoblins are of relatively small creatures. The size of supernatural creatures such as Elves, Goblins and so on are always mutable; sometimes they are smaller than Men, sometimes they are of similar stature and sometimes they are larger.

John Stark wrote:The goblin/hobgoblin came about in my thinking because hobgoblins already (potentially) have more hit points in AD&D than goblins (1+1 for hobs, 1-7 hit points for goblins); thus, I've always viewed hobgoblins as being bigger, or stronger, or more fierce, or more skilled in combat, or whatever, than goblins. I've simply adjusted the goblin hit die up a bit (to 1 full hit die), and the hobgoblin up to 1+2, to reflect my "view." Moving orcs up to 2+2 hit dice was mostly to fill the gap between the 1+2 hobgoblin (i.e., the bigger, tougher goblin), and the 3+1 bugbear.

Yes, I see. I initially went with Goblin [1 Hit Die], Orc [1+1 Hit Die], Hobgoblin [2+2 Hit Dice] and Bugbear [3+ Hit Dice].

John Stark wrote:Also, admittedly, the Tolkien influence comes into play here as well. I see goblins or hobgoblins as though they were the whiny, weak "Moria orcs" from LotR, with the soldier orcs of Mordor as tougher and better trained "orcs," who have more hit dice because they are better armed/armored, more disciplined, etc. Bugbears I guess would be more like the Isengard Uruk-hai, fierce and larger than other breeds.

Yes appropriating some of the Tolkien model, I went with Orc for the lesser breeds [1+1 Hit Die] and Hobgoblins / Uruks for the stronger [2+2 HD]. Then, Kobolds and Goblins [1-1 to 1 Hit Die] represented the truly lowly and Bugbears / Orogs the very strong [3+ Hit Dice].

John Stark wrote:Alot of this is arbitrary, and there was no one rubric that determined the order for me. Essentially, I wanted an orcish race that had more than 1 hit die, but less than the 3+1 that bugbears get in AD&D. Orcs got the bump for whatever convoluted reason my thought processes took.

Fair enough.

John Stark wrote:EDIT: Orog was IIRC a 2nd edition invention, which was an edition that I never played back in the day. So, that name didn't enter into my thinking at all. Even now years later, after having read through the core 2nd edition books a couple years ago, I can't say the name "orog" does much for me, so I stuck with my kobold/goblin/hobgoblin/orc/bugbear ranks.

No, not much for me initially either. I warmed to them a little better with the idea they were mixed with Ogre blood, but kept the nomenclature in the end because I never much liked Bugbear either...

Gary Gygax fixes this in Lejendary Adventures with hobgoblins being smaller than goblins. Still not very helpful critters though...