Your opinion of Goodman Games 1E style Modules

[Mythmere]

I doubt that Kenzer will really consider OSRIC until the OSRIC brand name has value over and above saying that something is "compatible with 1e."

That won't happen until OSRIC is bringing in its secondary target markets: (1) 1e gamers who aren't on the OOP net, (2) 3e gamers who once played 1e and are frustrated with 3e, and (3) kids who are just getting into FRPGs for the first time.

These goals won't happen in any significant way until OSRIC is being sold first on Amazon and more importantly in brick and mortar locations such as bookstores and game stores. Amazon may happen by the end of the year, and that will be the first big step. That step won't be as powerful until the OSRIC Companion, with treasures and monsters, is also out. That may take as long as a year, although progress is so far very fast with the help of Mike D, Xyanthon, and others.

Moving to bookstores is a step I haven't fully parsed out. It's a capability Lulu has, but promotion would be required. While a few game stores might pick it up from seeing net activity, I think that number would be insignificant. Thus far, OSRIC has moved very fast and in ways and channels I didn't expect. It may be that a year from now the method for this step will be clear. At the moment, I'm waiting in the expectation that this will happen. One thing I have learned from OSRIC is that a good product tends to develop (marketing-wise) in completely unexpected ways. So I'm waiting to see what the terrain looks like at the time the actual materials are ready for this step.

As OSRIC moves into the newer ground, it will represent a larger market than just the people who know what "1e compatible" means. OSRIC's advantage is an in-print rulebook, cooperative branding, and the vast product base that an open license will produce. Eventually, these factors will make it a more marketable brand than the "1e compatible" tag. But that's not today. It might be three months, it might be a year, but eventually the open source nature of OSRIC will make it clearly more profitable to use as a brand name than just "1e compatible." At that point, we can actually begin making inroads into the 3e market; once publishers see an expanded market for OSRIC materials there will be a snowball effect.

So far, Joe Browning and Phil Reed have already moved into 1e publishing solely because OSRIC gave them a vehicle with which to do so. Magique also looks like it is about to move into this area. There is a point at which Goodman and Kenzer will realize that there's an opening market where other publishers are staking out ground early. At that point it will be sensible to stake out some ground in at least a small way - just to keep a finger in the pie before the pie is lost to the early adopters like Phil and Joe.

Just as a matter of business sense, I give it as little as maybe four months before Kenzer and Goodman decide to be careful, and at least announce development of an OSRIC resource - probably a conversion. The downside is very small, and it will protect them from ending up behind the 8-ball if OSRIC continues to burgeon like it has been so far.

[Matthew]

I hear Kenzer are considering amalgamating Hack Master and Kalamar under one rules set. It will be interesting to see what they eventually do with regard to OSRIC.

[dcs]

My understanding (and this is coming from secondary sources at DF and "other places" so it may be only a rumor) is that some publishers of 1E modules are limiting there totals for any particular module to 500, which is some legal thresh-hold allowing them to avoid violation of copywrite laws. I just find these numbers (500) utterly dismal.

Selling 500 actually isn't too bad for a small-press publisher. The days in which everyone playing the game would buy every module that came out are long gone.

I think the "500" number refers to fanzines and nothing else.

And they only thought they could sell 60 at GenCon? WTF even bother.

Well, they were wrong, and to their credit they have admitted it and printed more.

[mistere29]

Selling 500 actually isn't too bad for a small-press publisher. The days in which everyone playing the game would buy every module that came out are long gone.

Well what would be a "bad" number. Does anyone even print less than 500?

[tacojohn4547]

Wow, there are lots of topics here on which to chew. Let’s take them one at a time.

Connection to Goodman Games
First off, I have no official or unofficial role with Goodman Games. All decisions regarding the DCC product line are made by Joseph Goodman, founder and owner, with input from Harley Stroh, the DCC product line editor.

My involvement in doing the 1E conversion of DCC #12.5 was solely voluntary and was a labor of love for this hobby of ours. The conversion project was unsolicited and was done without any conditions on either party.

That said, I think I’ve earned a wee bit of credibility with both Harley and Joseph, which has provided a basis for our dialogue about doing additional 1E conversions. As I mentioned earlier, though, any converted DCC's that see print will in all likelihood be coordinated with one of the larger gaming conventions.


OSRIC
I don’t know whether Goodman Games will ever release anything that is specifically OSRIC compatible. I know that Goodman is familiar with the OSRIC document and the OSRIC license, but I am not aware of any plans of theirs to do any OSRIC compatible releases. Based upon the following statement by Joseph Goodman on his company’s boards yesterday, I’d say that it is unlikely that Goodman will be releasing anything under OSRIC:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... php?t=1074

1E Iron Crypt of the Heretics print run size
I don’t know the size of the print run on the 1E version of DCC #12.5. To my knowledge, Goodman Games has not released that information to anyone, either privately or publicly. While many of us are quite interested to know the number of units preordered, sales data such as that are proprietary information that belongs to Goodman Games. Public dissemination of such is at the sole discretion of Goodman Games.

And, while I’ll agree that a print run of 60 for this module appears to have been a big miscalculation, keep in mind that there was virtually no valid sales data available at the time for a 1E module being released in today’s RPG market. Comparisons to PPP’s releases have been made by others, but at the time the 1E Iron Crypt was sent off to the printer, Rob Kuntz had only received orders for something in the low 200’s. So, suggesting that a 500 unit print run is really pathetic is an opinion that is unsupported by real data.

Selling 1,000’s of 1E modules in this day is a great goal, but I don’t think we should expect Goodman (or TLG or NG) to put their own capital at risk to print 1,000’s of 1E modules when the market for such modules is unproven at those levels. And as stated by Goodman himself, publishing material that is compatible with first edition (and therefore OSRIC compatible) does not really fit in the Goodman Games business model.


The upshot for me is that it appears that Goodman Games will continue to consider doing special convention releases that are 1E compatible. This leaves the door open for one or two DCC 1E conversions each year. I wish there was a different answer. I'd really like to see several more of the DCC's converted to 1E and in print. But, it isn't my decision to make.

tacojohn4547

[francisca]

RE: tacojohn457's comments:

I recently asked Mr. Goodman if he'd be interested in posting some OSRIC compatible conversions on his site, like he did with my AD&D conversion of DCC #7 (I'm converting a couple for my 1e GH game). He politely declined, citing legal issues.

He did, however, say that he'd be interested in any straight up 1e conversions, and would consider posting them.

So, it would seem:

1) Goodman Games has the blessing from WotC to post and publish 1e conversions without concern for legal hassles.

2) Goodman Games (in the person of Mr. Goodman, and contributors to the DCC line) are still carrying the torch for old-school.

Mr. Goodman had the foresight to try to bring old-school flavor to 3e, knowing that there are a bunch of us Grognards hanging about the 'net, with disposable income. He also foresaw the market demand for actual, truly compatible AD&D adventures and secured the permission to post them a few years back.

Whatever you think of the various DCC adventures, I think Goodman Games deserves our support, if not financially, then at least considering him/them a kindred spirit of sorts, for making a very credible attempt at keeping the old-school style in the RPG public's mind. Besides, Joseph has always been one hell of a nice guy the 3 or 4 times I've chatted with him in person.

[mistere29]

Comparisons to PPP’s releases have been made by others, but at the time the 1E Iron Crypt was sent off to the printer, Rob Kuntz had only received orders for something in the low 200’s. So, suggesting that a 500 unit print run is really pathetic is an opinion that is unsupported by real data.

What's your source on this, because if i recall correctly, rob did indeed print 500 copies of CotSK

[Mythmere]

Comparisons to PPP’s releases have been made by others, but at the time the 1E Iron Crypt was sent off to the printer, Rob Kuntz had only received orders for something in the low 200’s. So, suggesting that a 500 unit print run is really pathetic is an opinion that is unsupported by real data.

What's your source on this, because if i recall correctly, rob did indeed print 500 copies of CotSK

I think he did, eventually, but it was based on preorder numbers that took a while to climb, and he was posting those numbers publicly.

[AxeMental]

Taco John: "So, suggesting that a 500 unit print run is really pathetic is an opinion that is unsupported by real data."

I'm not trying to say that as a knock at anyone. Just that those numbers would be considered not worth the time of most indy publishers (outside of the FRPG industry anyway) and it wasn't meant at a slam against anyonje just an honest opinion. 500 is a great place to start, if the intention is to grow to 1000, 2000, 10,000 etc. Everyone has to start somewhere. It just can't be your goal or your either 1. pruning a collectors crowd or 2. not penetrating your market (and thats not always easy I know).

Taco: "Selling 1,000’s of 1E modules in this day is a great goal, but I don’t think we should expect Goodman (or TLG or NG) to put their own capital at risk to print 1,000’s of 1E modules when the market for such modules is unproven at those levels. And as stated by Goodman himself, publishing material that is compatible with first edition (and therefore OSRIC compatible) does not really fit in the Goodman Games business model. "

I wasn't saying to pre-print 1000s of modules, just put them on POD, small print runs or what have you and keep them available (he is trying to make money right?), no matter what the demand. If what is stopping him is fear of being sued by WOTC (if he crosses the 500 threshold), then do it using OSRIC.

I suspectg Goodman isn't really interested in the 1E market, but rather the 3E light market (where everyone seems to be making the money). I think he is foolish however, as its chump change compared to whats out there (ie AD&Ders from the late 70s and 80s). When I heard sales of 2,000 was considered a huge success in this market I about fell over.
AD&D has a much bigger potential then this.
The number of people posting online is probably less then 5% of active AD&D gamers (I know alot of gamers, and don't know any who post at DF here or Enworld). And there are many more who will give it a try once OSRIC gets out there. I know why GG, and TLG are doing what there doing, they think its impossible to recreate the glory days. But as good old Elinor Rosevellte once said "If you think you can, you can. And if you think you can't, you're right".

Fransisca: "Joseph has always been one hell of a nice guy the 3 or 4 times I've chatted with him in person." Thats cool. But I'd rather he be a total jerk if he produced top rate hard core 1E AD&D material instead of spam in a pretty can. The use of old school art outsides with 3E light material inside, I find deceptive (as in "come buy these modules just like the ones from the late 70s...see who the artists are). And that I don't care for (nice guy or not). The fact is, you can't have it both ways. You have to choose one market, or you'll end up earning the wrath of both.

[dcs]

I think he did, eventually, but it was based on preorder numbers that took a while to climb, and he was posting those numbers publicly.

Preorders for Cairn of the Skeleton King were in the high 200s before it went off to press IIRC. I know Rob has sold over 400 copies of it.

[tacojohn4547]

Comparisons to PPP’s releases have been made by others, but at the time the 1E Iron Crypt was sent off to the printer, Rob Kuntz had only received orders for something in the low 200’s. So, suggesting that a 500 unit print run is really pathetic is an opinion that is unsupported by real data.

What's your source on this, because if i recall correctly, rob did indeed print 500 copies of CotSK

My sources included Rob's own website, where he posted the number of units preordered and the number of units sold quite regularly, and various email I received from him personally regarding his diminishing inventory of CotSK following the shipping of the preordered copies. He did indeed print 500 copies of CotSK.

I wasn't commenting on whether a 500 copy print run was good, bad, or just about right. I was pointing out that AxeMetal's comment about a 500 copy print run being really pathetic was an opinion (his), and that such opinion had no basis in real data (i.e., no basis in fact).

FWIW, I tend to agree with the gist of what Axemetal is saying on this point. I think it is a shame that this is what our hobby has been reduced to. That is partly why I'm so passionate about supporting the hobby on so many fronts, including commercial organizations like Goodman, Necro, TLG, as well as non-profit efforts like OSRIC and DF..

The rights to publish under AD&D are owned by WotC and they hold all of the cards in that regard. But, other options appear to be opening up now. And that is a great thing in my mind.

tacojohn4547

[tacojohn4547]

RE: tacojohn457's comments:
So, it would seem:

1) Goodman Games has the blessing from WotC to post and publish 1e conversions without concern for legal hassles.

I wouldn't assume this to be the case. I think Goodman Games is acutely aware of the legal issues at hand. I think Goodman Games' decision to not regularly publish 1E compatible modules is directly related to their grasp of the relevant legal issues. Whether GG publishes special convention releases that are 1E compatible in the future is not really a reflection of the appreciation they have for the legal issues surrounding the OGL.

RE: tacojohn457's comments:
He also foresaw the market demand for actual, truly compatible AD&D adventures and secured the permission to post them a few years back.

Not sure what you're saying here. With the exception of the special GenCon release of the 1E version of Iron Crypt, there have been no truly AD&D compatible Goodman Games DCCs released. All other DCC's have been either 3.0 or 3.5 version adventures.

The 1E conversions that Goodman Games hosts on its website are fan-created conversions of some of the DCC's. These fan created 1E conversions are conversion guides really, not fully converted adventure modules. You have to have the 3.5 version of the DCC to make use of the 1E conversion guide, and you simply refer back and fourth between the actual DCC module and the 1E conversion guide when running under 1E.

RE: tacojohn457's comments:
Whatever you think of the various DCC adventures, I think Goodman Games deserves our support, if not financially, then at least considering him/them a kindred spirit of sorts, for making a very credible attempt at keeping the old-school style in the RPG public's mind.

I couldn't agree more.

tacojohn4547

[tacojohn4547]

Taco John: "So, suggesting that a 500 unit print run is really pathetic is an opinion that is unsupported by real data."

I'm not trying to say that as a knock at anyone. Just that those numbers would be considered not worth the time of most indy publishers (outside of the FRPG industry anyway) and it wasn't meant at a slam against anyonje just an honest opinion. 500 is a great place to start, if the intention is to grow to 1000, 2000, 10,000 etc. Everyone has to start somewhere. It just can't be your goal or your either 1. pruning a collectors crowd or 2. not penetrating your market (and thats not always easy I know).

Agreed, 500 is pathetic. But, I don't think it is Goodman Games' intention to grow the 1E or OOP compatible market to 1000 or 2000 or 10,000 copies. The 1E compatible or OOP compatible market is simply not the market they've chosen to publish in. They are precisely a 3.5/d20 publisher with their DCC product line.

Taco: "Selling 1,000’s of 1E modules in this day is a great goal, but I don’t think we should expect Goodman (or TLG or NG) to put their own capital at risk to print 1,000’s of 1E modules when the market for such modules is unproven at those levels. And as stated by Goodman himself, publishing material that is compatible with first edition (and therefore OSRIC compatible) does not really fit in the Goodman Games business model. "

I wasn't saying to pre-print 1000s of modules, just put them on POD, small print runs or what have you and keep them available (he is trying to make money right?), no matter what the demand. If what is stopping him is fear of being sued by WOTC (if he crosses the 500 threshold), then do it using OSRIC.

Okay, I see what you're saying about POD. Making some 1E compatible modules available at, say LuLu dot com, is another option worth considering. Makes sense. I think I'll look into that myself, for some stuff I have from BITD.

I suspectg Goodman isn't really interested in the 1E market, but rather the 3E light market.

The fact is, you can't have it both ways. You have to choose one market, or you'll end up earning the wrath of both.

Bingo. Goodman's market or markets are the 3.5/d20 market and to a lessor extent the C&C market.

tacojohn4547

[Falconer]

If Goodman is willing to change his business plan to include C&C, he can just as easily go over to 1e. Anyway, who knows what will happen when 4e comes around?

I received my copy of the 1e DCC #12.5 The Iron Crypt of the Heretics, and I will go on record as stating that I will purchase any 1e module that Goodman puts out if the quality is like this one, same as for PPP. (Actually, I find the quality of the PPP module to be superior to this one in terms of the cover.)

I haven't read the module yet. I don't read modules unless/until I plan to run it, in case someone else might run it for me at some point. But I'm a real sucker for the art and layout. I'm almost tempted to buy the whole DCC line because of the art, but I can't justify that sort of monetary commitment to a system I don't run. I also probably won't buy Goodman's C&C modules because they changed the look-and-feel away from what attracts me.

Anyway, I'm overall very pleased with this purchase. 1e rules + quality 1e look and feel = sold! Regards.

[dcs]

Actually, I find the quality of the PPP module to be superior to this one in terms of the cover.

Yes, the matted look of the PPP cover is more old-school than the glossy look of the GG cover.

Goodman actually used the 1e spell names instead of the 3e spell names in the module. So, for example, there is a reference to the "infravision" spell.