Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I think the DMG font-size is too small for everyday use. I like the font-size of OSRIC and the old TSR modules. I thought the font in CotSK was too big. I like maps that are clean, simple, easy to decipher, and accurate. I greatly prefer if at all possible that they be detachable from the descriptive text -- either on the inside cover or pull-out pages in the middle. I really don't like having to flip back and forth between the map and the descriptions. I generally prefer products in the 16-32pp range, but however many pages there are I want them to be meaty, again like the old TSR modules: read-aloud boxed text and scripted NPC dialogue is crap; redundant or overdetailed stat-blocks are crap; trivial background and detail that won't affect the actual adventure is crap. Good illustrations are appreciated, but I'd rather have no illustrations at all than bad ones. Too many illustrations makes me feel like I'm paying for them rather than the words -- 1 quarter or half-page illo per 4 pages seems about right to me. Illustrations must be germane to the actual content of the module, not generic scenes or clip-art.

RJK is charging $16 for a 48 page module, and as DCS said, he's probably setting the benchmark prices - provided his font size comes down. CotSK was top-notch quality in terms of production values, and except for the font size was just about perfect (can't speak to the content since I haven't played it yet, but if North's going to run it I assume it's really good). Unless he gets down to a 10 point font, his modules are going to get considered to have fewer pages than they do.

For me, I think the price I'd pay varies a whole lot based on whether I've read reviews and/or am familiar with the author's work. For Tower of Blood, if it's 48 pages with 10 point font, Holloway illustrations, and good reviews - I'd shell out $18 for it.

For a newer writer, I think the price depends on the reviews it gets and what else is out there that month within my gaming budget. If there's nothing else out there that month, I'd probably buy it unless the reviews stank, as long as the price was reasonable. That reasonable-price threshhold is maybe $13 for 16 pages, $15 for 32 pages, $18 and up for 48 pages. Those same prices would seem way too high if there was another product I hadn't bought yet. I'd only impulse-buy a 16 page module for $8-10, 32 pages for $11, and 48 pages for ... $11 is the dollar max for an impulse, over-budget buy.

And regular months would be in between those ranges somewhere.

I guess my conclusion is that that there's a big range depending on what I've heard about the module, know of the author and illustrator, what else is for sale that I haven't got yet, and how much of a budget I've got that month.

For pdfs, I'm with Red Priest; I don't much like the format, so someone would have to be giving me an awful lot of value for the money on a pdf. At least twice the page count and possibly three times the page count of a printed product before I'd buy a pdf.

My preference is to pay $8-10 for a 16pp module, $10-12 for a 24pp module, and $12-14 for a 32 pp module, including shipping if I don't have the option of buying the module locally. This fluctuates based on apparent density (and quality) though -- I'd more likely pay $12 for an 8pp module that looked very dense (small print, few illos, detailed map) than I would pay $9 for a 48pp module that appeared to have a lot of useless fluff. But the above is my preferred range (and yes, CotSK at $19 (including shipping) for what's effectively a 40pp module (48pp with large print and whitespace) is on the high end of what I consider acceptable, excused only by the author's marquee name-value, the novelty factor of being first out the gate, and the fact that the illos were done by Holloway -- other authors/publishers use this as a benchmark standard at their peril).

This is all good to know. The OSRIC project that I'm working on will probably be a PDF release only at first until I can determine what the demand would be. I'm doing around 20 illustrations not counting the front cover (which will be a hand painted acrylic painting by me) and maps that will depict scenes throughout the adventure as well as new critters. It will at least be 32 pages but more likely quite a bit more. I'm going with a 10 point font right now but I'm still in the very early stages.

T. Foster wrote:CotSK at $19 (including shipping) for what's effectively a 40pp module (48pp with large print and whitespace) is on the high end of what I consider acceptable, excused only by the author's marquee name-value, the novelty factor of being first out the gate, and the fact that the illos were done by Holloway -- other authors/publishers use this as a benchmark standard at their peril.

Well put.

I might be convinced to pay a similar amount for a similar module by someone else "to help a brother out" as my wife would say.

So is there a point when a module is too long (even if its good). I think of this in terms of "short story" vs. novel, or skeleton vs. complete body.

I'd be more likely to purchase a 30 page module for $15 then one with 100+ pages. The reason in my case is that I'm a slow reader, and I can't stand too much back story, or complicated plots. Its really a time thing as well (time to read the module and time to complete it).

My cut off point is probaby 50 pages. The only exception to this would be a single publication with several modules in it (say a book combining the giant series).

AxeMental wrote:So is there a point when a module is too long (even if its good). I think of this in terms of "short story" vs. novel, or skeleton vs. complete body.

I'd be more likely to purchase a 30 page module for $15 then one with 100+ pages. The reason in my case is that I'm a slow reader, and I can't stand too much back story, or complicated plots. Its really a time thing as well (time to read the module and time to complete it).

My cut off point is probaby 50 pages. The only exception to this would be a single publication with several modules in it (say a book combining the giant series).

No, for me, as long as it's well done, a long module is fine. Beyond the Mountains of Madness comes to mind. At 400+ pages it retailed for $39.95. Okay, it's not 1e or OD&D, but it proves an adventure can be very, very long and also very, very good.

Of course, Beyond the Mountains of Madness, isnt a typical adventure so to speak. It is really more a complete campaign setting. But I do undertand your point and agree with it. As an alternative example that I think fits the bill a tad better, I would suggest ToEM.

Jerry

Depends on where the 400 pages are. If they're the introduction and DM notes, it's going to SUCK unless it's written by Jack Vance or Fritz Leiber. If it's all in the keyed encounter areas, on the other hand, it's a bitchin' good value.

I can't stand it when a writer thinks I need a full-blown short story or novella to run keyed encounters. That's not a sign of good adventure writing, it is a sign of poor adventure writing. A good backstory adds a lot to an adventure, but it's not a substitute for an adventure. Moreover, the massive introductory novel is a clear statement that the author thinks he's writing for an uncreative hack of a DM who couldn't imagine his way out of a paper bag. Such an author assumes that the module will crash and burn in play if all the guidance this boob of a DM receives is an outline to spark creative development. Noooo, one needs to provide pre-chewed, pre-digested babyfood pap to this oxen audience they perceive as their readers.

Background material should be limited to setting the stage in quick, evocative language, and everything else had better either be germane to a party's tactics, equipment purchases, or clues that have a game effect in the actual play of the module.

The key to good writing of any kind is painting the picture with as few words as possible, and many bad writers in the age of cut-and-paste word processing absolutely rebel against that fact.

So, I think that at some point I'd get very leery of a high page-count product unless it was by someone I already knew was serious about writing quality and skilled at the self-control required for it.

For the most part I agree with you Matt. That is why I am leary of the Call of Cthulhu material example in this discussion about AD&D modules. For me the two are apples and oranges. Design style, the amount of background information needed between a Keeper vs DM varies by a huge amount. A good DM or Keeper can run anything with minimal starter material or even off the cuff. However I feel it is far easier to do so with a D&D setting than with a CoC setting and still be consistant. This is why I do appreciate ToEE. For it size, there is little fluff compared to the crunch. Unfortunately not every one can put a huge adventure together that well and you end up getting dozen of pages of the author seeming to try to justify their work instead of providing the key crunchieness. So yes I would also be very gunshy if a 200+ page tome for an adventure and would want a chance to give it a good go over prior to purchase.

As for Coc, well BtMoM is truely an exception. Most adventures for CoC runs similar to D&D in page count, from the 5 pager to the 40 pager. But the difference is in how the content is presented. Each style works exactly as it should for the game it is designed for. Rarely if ever will you find 5 pages if :

1) room name: Monter - Stat Block
line 1 of Description
line 2 of Description
Treasure list.

etc.

The exception would be a Keepers notes where he has the rest in his head.

Sorry about the tangent. But I beleive the difference should be stated because in my case and probably others was well, what we would pay for a CoC adventure of "X" pages are on a completely different scale as to what we would pay for a D&D adventure of "X" pages.

I hope this makes some sense... maybe someone else that also splits time between being a DM and Keeper can explaine it better then I.

I guess I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'd pay $20 for an 8 page module that was as good as any one of the G modules. When I say "as good" as one of the G modules, I don't mean that just in terms of art or layout. I mean the quality of the adventure itself. IMO 20 bucks for a module that's as good as one of those classics would be the best gaming investment I could make, as compared to buying, say, 40 pages of crap that gets called a "module" these days.

The G and D series were all short in terms of page count, and yet I've used them many times (B1, B2, and T1 fall into this category as well). Give me modules like those, and I'd gladly pay much more for them than I'd normally consider spending on a gaming product. When I can reuse something over and over again over the course of two decades, I'm glad to fork over my hard earned cash regardless of the length.

Formatting and page count mean far less to me than the quality of the adventure.

Jerry - yes, differences between games completely change the formula. CoC is a mystery game, and that needs waaaay more writing and work by the author. In a mystery, you DO have to lead the reader by the hand or else the clues could get played wrong.

I'm specifically talking about D&D, or OSRIC.

John Stark wrote:I guess I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'd pay $20 for an 8 page module that was as good as any one of the G modules. When I say "as good" as one of the G modules, I don't mean that just in terms of art or layout. I mean the quality of the adventure itself. IMO 20 bucks for a module that's as good as one of those classics would be the best gaming investment I could make, as compared to buying, say, 40 pages of crap that gets called a "module" these days.

The G and D series were all short in terms of page count, and yet I've used them many times (B1, B2, and T1 fall into this category as well). Give me modules like those, and I'd gladly pay much more for them than I'd normally consider spending on a gaming product. When I can reuse something over and over again over the course of two decades, I'm glad to fork over my hard earned cash regardless of the length.

Formatting and page count mean far less to me than the quality of the adventure.

Well said and exactly what I was trying to convey. I don't expect the sun and the moon for a few bucks, just a fun, rewarding, and memorable adventure to wrap a few sessions around.

While I said above that generally prefer modules in the 16-32pp range, I notice that most of what I consider my "all-time favorites" are actually much longer than that: Masks of Nyarlathotep is 160pp, Griffin Mountain is 208pp, "Lords of Thunder" is ~70pp, Caverns of Thracia is 80pp, and Necropolis is a whopping 224pp.

Of course, MoN is actually a connected series of "episodes" in the 16-32pp range (plus 20pp of player handouts), GM is more of what would nowadays be marketed as a "campaign setting" than an "adventure" (it doesn't describe 1 location and 1 plot, but rather dozens of locations and hundreds of plots), and Necropolis has fully 50pp of nothing but stat-blocks (DJ's stat-blocks make 3E look like OD&D). Also, all of these adventures are self-consciously "epic" in scope, intended to be played over a span of months, if not years, rather than polished off in a couple sessions.

Of all of them, only Necropolis feels at all "bloated" (a weirdly schizophrenic mix in that the adventure itself is designed for highly-skilled veteran players, and yet is written by Gygax in a hand-holding manner as if it's going to be run by a complete novice GM) and "Lords of Thunder" feels downright skeletal -- there are no scripted "scenes" or "encounters" in the entire adventure, it simply details the key characters and locations, gives an outline of what the "plot" is and how it's envisioned to progress, various ways which the PCs might become involved with different aspects of it and several possible denouements depending on their actions, and leaves it to the individual group to fit it all together and fill in the blanks in a manner suited to their particular play-style.

Also, it's worth noting that these are the exceptions -- the gold standard, the absolute cream of the crop, the best things the entire gaming-industry has produced over its entire 30 year lifespan (and its no surprise that at least 3 of the authors have since left the rpg industry for bigger and better things -- Paul Jaquays (CoT, co-author of GM) designs computer games, Larry DiTillio (co-author of MoN) is a screenwriter, and William Keith (LoT) is a successful novelist). These modules should definitely not be looked upon as the norm.

So, even though most of what I consider to be my all-time favorites are considerably longer, I'll still say that as a general rule I greatly prefer 16 or 32 densely-packed pages to the same amount of game-able material (or less) padded with fluff to fill 48, 64, or 96 (or more!) pages.

For US$10 I'd expect a minimum of 100 to 200 pages, depending on paper quality. I'd prefer it with no illustrations, A5 format and 8-point Verdana font.