Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Tolkien set out to create an English Mythology. No-one can doubt he was quite successful.

Who created the definitive American Mythology? Lovecraft? Gygax? Lucas? What do you think?

L. Ron Hubbard.

Falconer wrote:Tolkien set out to create an English Mythology. No-one can doubt he was quite successful.

Who created the definitive American Mythology? Lovecraft? Gygax? Lucas? What do you think?

Lucas and maybe Roddenberry as well.

I don't know whether Tolkien created an English mythology - which must be at least somewhat religious in that it deliberately attempts to explain physical reality through storytelling; he did however write the definitive English fantasy which, whether you believe his claims or not, explained part of the English psychology through the use of allegorical or symbolic means.

In that second sense, yeah - I would agree that maybe Star Wars or Star Trek comes closest to that. Star Trek might even be a better fit there as, at least the original series, quite often set out to tackle issues close to the American social consciousness of the day through stylized science fiction and in many cases outright allegory.

As for others, I would argue that Lovecraft was way too pessimistic and ignored the very American ideal of exploring and conquering a frontier and the optimism of nation-building and imposing our values on an entire continent with the hope that it would last long into the future.

Although some, like Neil Gaiman amongst others, have made sincere stabs at writing that Great American fantasy, I would argue they haven't really sunk into the social consciousness of Americans as a mythology the same way that Star Trek has. I would argue there are very few adult Americans alive today who would not recognize Kirk & Spock, whether they like science fiction or not.

If I had to nominate another, I would probably say the Golden Age comic books (both DC and Marvel) are good candidates for distinctly American mythos, maybe even moreso than Star Trek - as those characters are virtually indistinguishable from Gods. Likewise, not many Americans would be unable to recognize Superman, Batman or Spiderman.

As much as I would like to say, Robert E. Howard here, I think his contributions don't really qualify in the same popular sense as Star Trek or comics as I feel his best years were sadly cut short and (I would hope, had he lived) he would have taken to writing lengthier, more cohesive novels that expanded on his idealized vision of the rugged American individualist who conquers all before him .

L. Frank Baum wrote the definitive American fantasy.

- Wheggi

My bet would be Sergio Leone, who had combined the quintessential American story, the Western, with the quintessential American art form, the movie. (Then he did it again with the gangster film!)

Obviously, anything about the Old West is far more myth than reality. From what I'd read over the years, the cowboys were not good guys, but thugs, bravoes who caused more trouble than they were worth.

Unfortunately, I think Howard was grasping towards that direction when he killed himself.

But to answer the question... James Fennimore Cooper, Washington Irving, Mark Twain, Frank Baum and Steven King all come to mind.

For me, Baum created the American fairy tale/fantasy, but those stories do not resonate as a mythology.

It's hard for me to think about a mythology as coming from a single author or source. So, I composed the contents of a hypothetical lexicon of American mythology. It would include the following:

I. American Indian myths
II. Stories of the European explorers (Lost Cities of Gold, Fountain of Youth, Roanoke)
III. Cooper, Irving, and Twain works (esp. Leather Stocking Tales, Legend of Sleepy Hollow, Midnight Ride of Paul Revere)
IV. American Tall Tales (most essential to the lexicon) (esp. Paul Bunyan)
V. Old West (tall tales, films, books)
VI. Pro Wrestling*/Sports legends (esp. Babe Ruth)
VII. Sci Fi**

Parts III - V are most essential to American mythology.

*I'm not entirely kidding, here. For a long time the characters and stories of the pro wrestling business were very similar to mythological pantheons and they shared story elements, too.

**I'm hesitant on this. There is an alien/abduction mythology for sure. Additionally, stories about the loss of individualism and the fear of a Terminator-style technological takeover are increasingly becoming part of the subconscious. But, I'm not sure if those are just American sentiments. I'm not sure various fictional works that are good candidates are really close enough to a mythology. Both the DC and Marvel universes represent something similar to mythology, but different. I do not think about Star Trek in that way at all and Star Wars only mildly so (probably more so when only the first three films existed). I think 2001, Close Encounters, and even Matrix and Termintor are more mythological than SW and ST.

Melan wrote:My bet would be Sergio Leone, who had combined the quintessential American story, the Western, with the quintessential American art form, the movie. (Then he did it again with the gangster film!)

You nailed it, motherfucker. This was going to be my reply before scrolling down to see you beat me to it.

It's optimism and barbarity rolled into one. Don't fence me in with all the good, bad and ugly that comes along with that mentality. As for as a religious element, it's agnostic, and that's a religious philosophy. These movies say it doesn't matter if there's a God or gods, this is the world and this is how you navigate it. It's better done with a gun and a conscience (of sorts).

If current America were ancient Jerusalem, some priests would be emerging from the temple about now with newly "rediscovered" scrolls admonishing the people how they'd forgotten the conscience part of the equation.

If it helps to narrow it down at all, what I was really looking for is the exemplary individual who succeeded in creating a mythology (as Tolkien did).

But I’m fine with any direction this thread wants to take, including disputing the premise.

George Washington Irving

Mark Twain

In my mind, it's got to be the Western, for sure. So, not only Leone, but directors like John Ford, and whoever wrote the books a lot of those movies were based on. Even Star Trek was a "Western set in Space", or at least, it was sold that way to the cigar puffing yes men at CBS.

The precursor to the western were things like the tall tales: Paul Bunyan, John Henry, Pecos Bill, Johnny AppleSeed, and the retelling of the tales of historical people and events, such as Daniel Boone, the Alamo, etc...

This was carried forward into war movies, perhaps most blatantly by Kelly's Heroes (even had an acclaimed western leading man as the principle character). Movies based on historical events, such as Midway, are later additions which fed the idea of America as a nation beating all comers, especially despots and sneaky bastards.

A distant second would be the pulp tales/serials, like Flash Gordon, The Shadow, etc...

Yeah, I'd say Western and Frontier tales. So candidates would include Louis L'Amour, Zane Grey, John Ford, Sergio Leone, James Fenimore Cooper, et al.

Falconer wrote:If it helps to narrow it down at all, what I was really looking for is the exemplary individual who succeeded in creating a mythology (as Tolkien did).

But I’m fine with any direction this thread wants to take, including disputing the premise.

Sure there were other contributors, Clint Eastwood not the least of them, but it was all Leone's vision. So, I'll stick with him. The man wasn't even an immigrant; what does that say?