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Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:18 pm
by Cloak n' Dagger
And to throw another curve ball into the thread, another wandering monster that I ran across this morning on G+.

I think this, too, is a reason why "new school" D&D and it's players, differs so much from bitd.

The Changing Face of Dungeons and Dragons

For those who don't wish to click and follow to the original article I've pasted it here, added as a spoiler since it's a bit long winded and didn't want show a long post:
D&D has been directed inward for 40 years. OG D&D players did not perform their roles for an audience but for each other. Yet this has changed DRAMATICALLY in just a few short years. D&D is now largely directed outward, performed for the entire world to see.

Enter podcasts and Twitch. The growth of streaming or recording D&D sessions is having a HUGE impact on the game. First, it’s bringing large numbers of new players into the tent. D&D staff are finding that over half of new D&D 5E players have gotten their start by watching online play first!

Acquisitions Incorporated was the trailblazer in this trend, first as a fledgling podcast, then converted to a live event played in front of audiences at their PAX events. (More here.) But the big breakthrough was Critical Role. Despite being over three friggin’ hours long, the 1st episode of Critical Role has been watched 7,500,000 times since it came to YouTube.

The first season of Critical Role lasted 141 episodes, each lasting 3+ hours. Watching it requires nearly 18 full days of your life, which shows the huge commitment folks have in watching other people play D&D.

And the recent “Stream of Many Eyes” event was WotC essentially pushing all of their chips forward and saying, “All in.”

This scale of views is enough to drive big sales obviously. Wizards of the Coast is happy with the results and doubling down. The official D&D Twitch channel now has over 50 weekly hours of liveplay programming produced or sponsored by the company. Add to that the 100+ D&D play live podcasts like Sneak Attack!, which homebrews their own campaign world.

Leaving aside the fact that the technology didn’t exist back when D&D was created, the game didn’t originate with voyeurism in mind. Remember, tabletop roleplaying games had their roots in historical wargaming, which were played with miniatures on tabletops, using sophisticated rules.

Tabletop roleplaying games played up the “tabletop” aspect via the tactical use of miniatures being moved around on a grid. It also played up the “game” aspect by introducing copious rules to adjudicate actions and dice rolls. While a wholly imaginative game of fantasy, very little was fully left to the imagination, as there was a rule for it.

Nowadays, tabletop roleplaying games play up the “roleplaying” aspect. Players can oft be professional voice actors or even work in the entertainment industry, having a professional background in screenplay writing. By comparison, Gary Gygax–the very man who put the “roleplaying” into wargaming–famously snarked that if roleplaying was all he wanted to do, he’d “join a high school drama club.”

I can attest to this personally. When I was a kid in the 80s, we certainly used character voices and had a good time with it, giggling when we did a silly goblin voice or tried to do a booming monster growl, despite our adolescent voices cracking. But we never tried to “inhabit” our characters, nor did we drift into long roleplaying monologues. We were too anxious to get back to rolling our dice.

Likewise, if someone would have asked us about our character’s backstory, I can imagine us being so confused that we’d flip our character sheet over to the back, wondering if they were asking about our spell list or the gear we had accumulated through being a murder hobo. Our character’s “backstory” was that of a hero who took a mission in a tavern. End of story.

Besides, things were different culturally. Despite the insane explosion of popularity around D&D, it was very much a hobby at the fringes. There were no tools for finding events, even if you were brave enough to look for one.

Instead, you kept to basements. D&D wasn’t “cool,” so you hid it from your peers, afraid you’d be beaten up for it. As a result, many old school players literally bled for D&D. And you hid it from your parents, because the Satanic Panic was sweeping the country and you were afraid their misinformation on the game would get it taken away from you.

We certainly didn’t “stream it” or call any undo attention to it whatsoever. Us sliding around miniatures on a piece of graph paper wouldn’t make for engaging podcasting!

Indeed, D&D was directed inward, not outward. We were nerdy kids in our basements, never having the thought occur to us that we should perform roles for an audiences outside of us. This gave the whole endeavor an introspective quality, making the games almost impossible to appreciate without you being there.

My evenings were not spent with Twitch, but as “lonely fun” using a #2 pencil to draft up character after character, none of them with a lick of backstory, all of them instead created wholly on the hope of lucky d6 rolls.

But times have changed. And in saying that, I realize that 1984 didn’t so much call to get that hot take back, as much as they faxed to have it back. D&D has moved from an introvert’s game to an extrovert’s game. Yet, unless you have been playing the game for decades, it’s difficult to appreciate how much of a change this has been.

This is good. A 40-year-old game that was once insanely popular due to introducing imaginative worlds via graph paper and dice rolls is once again an insanely popular game due to introducing imaginative worlds via rich characters and emotional interactions.

And, pleasepleaseplease, dear nerds, this needn’t be an either / or. This should be a both / and. I’m proud that the game I love and grew up with has an analytical side, and I will gladly share my miniatures collection with you and help you learn which modifier to add to your die roll.

And I’m proud that the game I’m seeing now has a wonderful roleplaying side, and I’m trusting you’ll be generous in helping an old D&D nerd like me generate a sweet character backstory.

Because the only backstory I have written on my character sheet is “murder hobo.” But he has accumulated a lot of loot.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:21 pm
by T. Foster
Have we already had the discussion here, or was it on another board, that the apparent ongoing transformation of D&D from an activity you engage in with your friends to a show your watch other people engage in by yourself seems counter-productive and ultimately self-defeating? On the one hand, having examples to point to showing how and why playing D&D can be fun seems like a good thing, and was surely a huge contributor to 5E's success, but how many of the people watching these shows are actually playing the game themselves? And how many of them are discouraged that playing the game at the table with your friends isn't the same as when the edited/quasi-scripted professional actors, writers, and comedians play - that it's slower, less funny, has more tedious rules arguments, plans that don't work out, that the other players are annoying and not cool, etc.? Especially since (from what I've heard - I've never actually watched so much as a single episode of any of these things) the shows are becoming slicker and more obviously scripted and less game-like than they were a couple of years ago? Are we getting near, or possibly already at, a point where people are buying D&D books more for the sake of keeping up with what's happening on the shows than to actual play them? It all seems very weird, and backwards, to me.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:36 pm
by Ratbreath
Cloak n' Dagger wrote:For those who don't wish to click and follow to the original article I've pasted it here
Interesting article. Thank you. This explains a few things. I was recently wandering around youtube for D&D stuff and I came across a rather slickly produced 5e session of the "Tomb of Annihilation". I recognized one of the players as a comedian and actor and since I couldn't remember his name that annoyed me, so I had to google it. From this I discovered that the suspiciously hot redhead was an actress on some popular vampire show, and I think at least one other player was an actor as well. In retrospect I suppose they all were, even if this was their first time.

I...guess on the whole this is a good thing? O_o

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:35 pm
by Falconer
T. Foster wrote:from what I've heard - I've never actually watched so much as a single episode of any of these things
We should designate someone to watch one and report back.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:40 pm
by T. Foster
Not it!

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:53 pm
by Ragnorakk
Falconer wrote:
T. Foster wrote:from what I've heard - I've never actually watched so much as a single episode of any of these things
We should designate someone to watch one and report back.
I've tried before - please don't make me try again.

I guess it wasn't horrible, it was just dull and didn't feel immediate. People that are trained or practiced in dramatic extemporization come off that way - it just didn't seem like a real game. Hard to describe - just kind of an uncanny valley effect for me.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm
by Ratbreath
Ragnorakk wrote:
Falconer wrote:
T. Foster wrote:from what I've heard - I've never actually watched so much as a single episode of any of these things
We should designate someone to watch one and report back.
I've tried before - please don't make me try again.

I guess it wasn't horrible, it was just dull and didn't feel immediate. People that are trained or practiced in dramatic extemporization come off that way - it just didn't seem like a real game. Hard to describe - just kind of an uncanny valley effect for me.
Yes! Yes exactly. It felt sort of like an infomercial, but less honest. Here's a link to what I was talking about if someone is curious. I couldn't make it very far because of the reasons listed above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cXJszfnWyQ

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:34 am
by Mad_Mac
I prefer D&D as a participant, not as a spectator. I don't really 'get' all the effort that goes into producing a D&D session for others to watch, and I'm completely lost when it comes to understanding the appeal of watching it.

Clearly many people do watch, but I'd much rather play.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:50 am
by ghendar
Watching people play games on youtube is a thing right now. There are people making lots of money filming themselves playing a video game and then making comments about it. Kind of like a Mystery Science Theater but for video games instead of movies. Given that, it seems natural that there is also a 'market' for people to watch other people play D&D, or other RPGs. I don't get it. Watching that stuff holds zero appeal for me but that clearly isn't true for a lot of other people. Hell, people film themselves unboxing loot crates and other stuff they bought. I'm waiting for someone to film themselves taking a dump or eating dinner in their kitchen.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:22 am
by MageInBlack
Mad_Mac wrote:I prefer D&D as a participant, not as a spectator. I don't really 'get' all the effort that goes into producing a D&D session for others to watch, and I'm completely lost when it comes to understanding the appeal of watching it. Clearly many people do watch, but I'd much rather play.
ghendar wrote:Watching people play games on youtube is a thing right now. There are people making lots of money filming themselves playing a video game and then making comments about it. Kind of like a Mystery Science Theater but for video games instead of movies. Given that, it seems natural that there is also a 'market' for people to watch other people play D&D, or other RPGs. I don't get it. Watching that stuff holds zero appeal for me but that clearly isn't true for a lot of other people. Hell, people film themselves unboxing loot crates and other stuff they bought. I'm waiting for someone to film themselves taking a dump or eating dinner in their kitchen.
South Park made fun of this...well after I made fun of my son for doing it. I would see him watching these videos and I would say, "you know you have that game installed on your computer? You can be playing it right now!" As for the "Watch Us Play D&D" videos, I don't get it either. It is like some kind of "hey...celebrities play D&D...its cool" kinda crap. I didn't give a shit when Vin Diesel came out of the D&D closet or that Scarlett Johanson played D&D once. Celebrities admitting that they play(ed) D&D is about as underwhelming as Tim Kask's games.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:31 am
by Juju EyeBall
This is the same shit that's going on now where people watch other people play video games instead of playing it themselves.

When I look at the television, I want to see me staring right back at me.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:01 am
by MageInBlack
Yup...I would rather play the game than watch it like a nerd sport. Movies are another matter. I would rather watch John Rambo drop from a cliff into some trees and then sew up his arm...than do that myself.

I like watching Wil Wheaton's Tabletop though. Even though they are playing the game...I think of it more like a "review" show to help me decide if I want to go buy the game because those things are expensive nowadays.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:07 am
by Juju EyeBall
MageInBlack wrote:I like watching Wil Wheaton's Tabletop though. Even though they are playing the game...I think of it more like a "review" show to help me decide if I want to go buy the game because those things are expensive nowadays.

Can't stand his pretentious smug face. He is the physical embodiment of fingernails on a chalkboard.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:09 am
by MageInBlack
DungeonDork wrote:Can't stand his pretentious smug face. He is the physical embodiment of fingernails on a chalkboard.
I like when I read a forum post that I don't have to decode any hidden meaning from.

Re: WTF D&D?

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:10 am
by Juju EyeBall
MageInBlack wrote:
DungeonDork wrote:
MageInBlack wrote:I like watching Wil Wheaton's Tabletop though. Even though they are playing the game...I think of it more like a "review" show to help me decide if I want to go buy the game because those things are expensive nowadays.
Can't stand his pretentious smug face. He is the physical embodiment of fingernails on a chalkboard.
I like when I read a forum post that I don't have to decode any hidden meaning.
:wink: