Knights & Knaves Alehouse

T. Foster wrote:If you haven’t already, you might want to try starting with The Eyes of the Overworld, which is an easier read than The Dying Earth.

Agreed. Eyes of the Overworld was my favorite of the Dying Earth books, so that might be a better place to start.

Finarvyn wrote:

T. Foster wrote:If you haven’t already, you might want to try starting with The Eyes of the Overworld, which is an easier read than The Dying Earth.

Agreed. Eyes of the Overworld was my favorite of the Dying Earth books, so that might be a better place to start.

You guys use the word "start". Eyes came out about 16 after the Dying Earth, so are you saying that Eyes...and the books after it...are better than the Dying Earth and Miracle Workers?

The Black Company is one of my favorite reads all time.

Now I need to see if I've read all of them. I read most of them but hadn't circled back to double check that I've missed any.

I think I've read the first 3-5 books at least 3 times

gizmomathboy wrote:The Black Company is one of my favorite reads all time.

Mine too.

I had thought about recommending them in this thread, but they occupy a middle ground between epic and non-epic. As a mercenary company, the Black Company definitely affect the world around them. But they're pretty human and vulnerable, often surviving only due to a combination of luck and pluck.

MageInBlack wrote:

Finarvyn wrote:

T. Foster wrote:If you haven’t already, you might want to try starting with The Eyes of the Overworld, which is an easier read than The Dying Earth.

Agreed. Eyes of the Overworld was my favorite of the Dying Earth books, so that might be a better place to start.

You guys use the word "start". Eyes came out about 16 after the Dying Earth, so are you saying that Eyes...and the books after it...are better than the Dying Earth and Miracle Workers?

Eyes of the Overworld isn’t really a sequel to The Dying Earth, it just shares the same setting, so they don’t need to be read in sequence. The Dying Earth is absolutely worth reading, it just might be easier to get through it if you’ve gotten accustomed to Vance’s style via the more straightforwardly accessible later book.

The Dying Earth was, I believe, Vance’s first published work, and is in many ways an amateur work - it’s overflowing with ideas and style, and is justly considered a classic for that reason, but I’m terms of story and characterization it’s pretty opaque. By contrast, by the time of Eyes of the Overworld Vance had published a dozen or more books, had won a Hugo award, and had established his mature style. It’s a much more polished and commercial work, but in that same way perhaps not quite as rare and inspiring.

DungeonMonkey wrote:

gizmomathboy wrote:The Black Company is one of my favorite reads all time.

Mine too.

I had thought about recommending them in this thread, but they occupy a middle ground between epic and non-epic. As a mercenary company, the Black Company definitely affect the world around them. But they're pretty human and vulnerable, often surviving only due to a combination of luck and pluck.

Totally agree. Fantastic books, especially the first three.

Welleran wrote:

DungeonMonkey wrote:

gizmomathboy wrote:The Black Company is one of my favorite reads all time.

Mine too.

I had thought about recommending them in this thread, but they occupy a middle ground between epic and non-epic. As a mercenary company, the Black Company definitely affect the world around them. But they're pretty human and vulnerable, often surviving only due to a combination of luck and pluck.

Totally agree. Fantastic books, especially the first three.

When they head South things definitely get weirder.

Elantris, by Brandon Sanderson, was a decent read. Not a trilogy, non-epic. Not traditional fantasy either. A bit cheesy, but not bad.

MageInBlack wrote:I was afraid I couldn't explain myself and what I was looking for because it is kinda based on a feeling of a story type more than an exact definition.

The word you're probably looking for is mythic, which is where well-known themes make a story resonate with the audience regardless of the way it is told. The story of King Arthur, for example, is mythic in that it can be told in all sorts of ways, in all sorts of styles, even told poorly, and the audience will still experience the emotional impact it carries. Because mythic elements work no matter how you use them, storytellers often recycle them into new stories, where they continue to work just as they always have. It is this recycling that you're trying to avoid.

T. Foster wrote:The Dying Earth was, I believe, Vance’s first published work, and is in many ways an amateur work - it’s overflowing with ideas and style, and is justly considered a classic for that reason, but I’m terms of story and characterization it’s pretty opaque. By contrast, by the time of Eyes of the Overworld Vance had published a dozen or more books, had won a Hugo award, and had established his mature style. It’s a much more polished and commercial work, but in that same way perhaps not quite as rare and inspiring.

The Dying Earth is the only Vance book that I have liked--no, loved. I have lost count how many times I have re-read that slender volume, which is like a unique bottle of wine made from an unknown fruit. There is nothing quite like it.

I dunno. To me The Dying Earth feels too heavily under the influence of Clark Ashton Smith, and that it took him a few more books to grow into his own voice. But then I’m a huge Vance fan - I’ve read a couple dozen of his books and own and plan to eventually read literally all of the rest - so it’s not surprising that I’m going to be of a different opinion.

T. Foster wrote:I dunno. To me The Dying Earth feels too heavily under the influence of Clark Ashton Smith, and that it took him a few more books to grow into his own voice. But then I’m a huge Vance fan - I’ve read a couple dozen of his books and own and plan to eventually read literally all of the rest - so it’s not surprising that I’m going to be of a different opinion.

I struggle with Vance often, which is why I suggested Eyes over the other Dying Earth books. That one flowed for me.

I picked up his Demon Princes novels recently but haven't had a chance to read them yet. Am I in for a treat?

Finarvyn wrote:I picked up his Demon Princes novels recently but haven't had a chance to read them yet. Am I in for a treat?

Well, to me they’re some of his best and most quintessential stuff, but I have no idea how well somebody who struggles with or claims not to like Vance’s style would enjoy them.

I read Dragon Masters recently. The only Vance I’ve read other than the four Dying Earth books. It was quite different from the Dying Earth books in tone - more grim and serious, a little more “hard” science fiction-y - but had some typical Vance-isms - gleefully purple prose and occasionally complex wordplay between characters. (Joaz’s interrogations of the Sacerdotes standing out in the latter case.) Set on a dying, decadent world.

The main thing that struck me about it though was how terse it was. Growing up and continuing to live in a time when sci-fi and fantasy novels tend to be 3, 4, 10, 20 times longer than they need to be, I very rarely have experienced the book where I think to myself, “You know, this could have used another 100 pages.” Dragon Masters could have used another 100 pages, with tons of details sort of implied or never really delved into completely. I’m normally ok with leaving a lot to the reader’s imagination, but in this case, the book often seemed skeletal.

That said, what Vance did pack into those barely more than 100 pages was quite excellent.

Ironically, that and his other Hugo Award winner "The Last Castle" are two of his works that I haven't yet read because I don't own them in a stand-alone volume but only as part of a thick anthology of Hugo Winners that I've never felt up to reading in its entirety. I should probably just read the two Vance stories and then go back sometime later and read all the rest...