Knights & Knaves Alehouse

For what it's worth, the year of my birth (1970) puts me about in the middle of Generation X. I think Conway's analogies are strained, to put it mildly.

Jeff wrote:I sat and thought about this response, because I wondered what "my" Star Wars is.

I think I've lost it. Really. I think I have. Star Wars just doesn't capture my imagination anymore. Maybe it's why I was disenchanted with the current set of films.

Here's a very very different review than the one I posted earlier.
https://tvwriter.net/gerry-conway-on-the-last-jedi/

(also worth reading the Vulture link from the 2nd paragraph)

After reading it, I began to see some of the symbolism the author mentions, but it is so absolutely subtle that it's missed (at least, by me) in the comedy of the film as well as the departure from previous films.

What bothers me the most is that, if Rian Johnson is the stereotypical Gen-Xer, and he's writing the story as a new vision shared primarily between Gen X and millennials, then why has it struck such a discord with other Gen Xers. I get the whole Baby Boomer angle of the first trilogy and prequels. I see it, though, I don't know how much of that is really in play.

So, am I just that disconnected from other Gen Xers out there?

I quite liked that review and it encapsulates a lot of what I think I haven't been able to articulate about the movie. I have similar ideas to Conway with regard to generational conflict. (For what it's worth, Rian Johnson and I were born about 3 months apart.)

Looking back to Falconer's post on the RT ratings of each movie, I'm really struck... It seems the argument on the Last Jedi comes down to "It's about a 6.5 or 7 out of 10," versus, "OMG, you have ruined my childhood, you fucking monsters!" with me in the former camp rather than the latter. And I will willingly acknowledge the irony of this situation since the arguments on the prequels were pretty much identical, and I was certainly in the "ruined childhood" camp rather than the "it's between o.k. and meh" camp.

But the Conway piece might give me a better idea as to why this is. The prequels were movies made by a Baby Boomer for Generation X, but as per the stereotypical Baby Boomer, he had no real understanding of "his kids" and his efforts to "be cool" fell completely flat. Force Awakens is a movie by a Gen Xer passively aggressively giving both the Baby Boomers and the Millennials the finger. I'm perfectly willing to cheer that sentiment on, but can see why it's got some people in a huff.

Geoffrey wrote:

Falconer wrote:I love the Star Wars Holiday Special like I love the old Star Wars Kenner action figures and the old Star Wars Marvel comics and the Star Wars episode of The Muppet Show. Star Wars was a product of a lost time, and these things capture some of the same magic in a totally lovable and unpretentious way which probably can never be replicated. All of Star Wars orbits around that original 1977 movie, and these things are in low orbit, if you know what I’m saying.

I miss the Star Wars magic of the 1970s. While I have enjoyed some of the Star Wars sequels, novels, and comics, none of them is "my" Star Wars. The original Star Wars film is my favorite movie, sending me into transports of joy. My Star Wars consists of the 1977 film plus my youthful inchoate imaginings of the further adventures of Luke, Leia, Han, Chewbacca, C-3PO, and R2-D2.

The first movie was magical in this sense. I explained exactly this view to a friend last week. The original Star Wars, before they ever announced a sequel or numbered it IV, or re-named it "A New Hope", Star Wars was magical because it was the gateway to a universe of infinite possibilities, unhampered by the directions that the subsequent movies went.

I had my Kenner Star Wars figures, an X-Wing, Darth Vader's Tie Fighter, the Death Star, and a Landspeeder. It was D&D to a kid before discovering D&D.

Regarding the generational conflict theory:

While I think the piece has some good observations, it misses out on the most important dynamic:

The failure of the Boomer Generation was not in their ideals. But in the way they let them go to waste within themselves. Young Boomers created marvellous, art and pop culture for the ages. Fat boomers created prequels and Everybody Loves Raymond.

But Johnson portrays the ideals themselves as pointless and bound for corruption or irrelevance. Not only their carriers.

Now, if you make a movie, you have the choice to present things the way you want. If you want to deconstruct Luke Skywalker, you can. But you could just as well show him trying as hard as he can to follow the old ideal. Why should, in a fairy-tale, an idealistic person be corrupted? Why should the burning of books ever be presented as a viable option?

What Johnson did was not a finger towards corrupted boomers. It was his showing of his inner nihilism: He cannot even understand the idealistic person that Luke Skywalker is. So he shows him the only way he knows how: as a fat corrupted useless boomer.

And this is also where the article is right with Kylo Ren: meaningless evil out of no particular convincing reason is the only way RJ knows it (spoiled Brat with famous parents), so that is what he shows.

Lucas imagined up a universe that from the opening has grown beyond him. Because it hinted of infinities of bad and evil and a mysterious gigantic universe. Johnson collapses everything into the nihilist and small-minded world that he knows:

Small, trivial and ultimately meaningless and uninteresting.

There is more heart, wit and soul in commercial products such as Guardians of the Galaxy than in this rotten movie.

For the time being I refuse to play with people who consider TLJ a good movie. So far I had to kick nobody out. Among my friends and aquaintances, more or less everybody hates TLJ, across generations.

Settembrini wrote:The failure of the Boomer Generation was not in their ideals...

I - and I imagine Rian Johnson - would disagree on this point. Their idealism was ultimately narcissistic and hypocritical. It only applied to them, but not their parents nor their children. They held their ideals for long as it let them feel good about themselves and then wandered off to whatever belief system made them feel good about themselves next. I think to add anything further would wander off into impermissible politics.

For the time being I refuse to play with people who consider TLJ a good movie. So far I had to kick nobody out. Among my friends and aquaintances, more or less everybody hates TLJ, across generations.

That's... wow. Really?

bobjester wrote:The original Star Wars, before they ever announced a sequel or numbered it IV, or re-named it "A New Hope", Star Wars was magical because it was the gateway to a universe of infinite possibilities, unhampered by the directions that the subsequent movies went.

Very well put.

bobjester wrote:I had my Kenner Star Wars figures, an X-Wing, Darth Vader's Tie Fighter, the Death Star, and a Landspeeder. It was D&D to a kid before discovering D&D.

I had the landspeeder along with only half-a-dozen figures: Luke in his orange X-wing uniform, Boba Fett, Greedo, Hammerhead, Snaggletooth, and Walrus Man. Those six figures and the landspeeder played into countless of my Star Wars fantasies. I also remember playing outside with the hose emitting a narrow jet of water from the nozzle, pretending that it was a lightsaber. (Good thing we lived in the mountains and had a well, and thus free water.) What a wellspring of joy that movie was and is!

I had the Millennium Falcon and small assortment of figures (but a lot more Micronauts and GI Joe stuff overall); my best friend had the Death Star and what seemed like every Star Wars figure. We spent hours upon hours playing with these. This was the same period when we were introduced to AD&D, and we would create various scenarios with the figures and use d20s and primitive rules to resolve combats. I'd forgotten all about that; those toys really did evoke a sense of wonder. That may play a larger role in my present disgruntlement than I had realized.

Settembrini wrote:Now, if you make a movie, you have the choice to present things the way you want. If you want to deconstruct Luke Skywalker, you can. But you could just as well show him trying as hard as he can to follow the old ideal. Why should, in a fairy-tale, an idealistic person be corrupted? Why should the burning of books ever be presented as a viable option?

This is what he should have done, and would have made an infinitely better movie. The actual how & why Luke Skywalker turned away from the Force and the galaxy is the missed opportunity in TLJ.

Instead we are shown the consequences of allowing entropy and chaos full reign of our beliefs and senses. I cannot believe that any Force sensitive being would accept this as 'the way this must be'.

What Johnson did was not a finger towards corrupted boomers. It was his showing of his inner nihilism: He cannot even understand the idealistic person that Luke Skywalker is. So he shows him the only way he knows how: as a fat corrupted useless boomer.

The book burning is a rampant 'new' idea in today's young idealogues, but they alone believe it is a new concept. It is what it is - censorship.

Book burning itself should send up all kinds of red flags in the movie viewing public! What kind of creator relies on this as a means to propel the story forward? (Even though it is supposed to be (yet another) misdirection.)

Everyone knows that nihilism doesn't make for a good movie. Doubt me on that? Look up "Glen and Randa" and then get back to me on that.

Lucas imagined up a universe that from the opening has grown beyond him. Because it hinted of infinities of bad and evil and a mysterious gigantic universe. Johnson collapses everything into the nihilist and small-minded world that he knows:

Small, trivial and ultimately meaningless and uninteresting.

In an unbound universe, there is always something more interesting and inspirational than nihilism, but, RJ and others only see that nail head that MUST be hit on over & over again, because [agenda].

There is more heart, wit and soul in commercial products such as Guardians of the Galaxy than in this rotten movie.

There was more heart and soul in Thor: Ragnajoke than TLJ, but you'd have to crowd out the constant barrage of unfunny millennial humor to find it.

For the time being I refuse to play with people who consider TLJ a good movie. So far I had to kick nobody out. Among my friends and aquaintances, more or less everybody hates TLJ, across generations.

That's a little strong, even for my tastes, as I have found that most of the locals that I talked to who actually liked TLJ aren't nihilists themselves, and are therefore self-pruning from my short list of D&D players.

Its just that they never noticed that particular message amongst all the hoo-haa special effects, action and the oh-so-modern "men are 'tupid, the force is female" agenda, because its fashionable to be a mysandrist these days, and most males (including me) are rather self-depracating to a point and generally inclusive by nature.

But I expect that studios will always reflect the current fashions, music, society and political trends in whatever movie is being made. Most of my favorite movies are political to some degree, but is so deeply hidden in the story that it becomes background, NOT at the forefront and topic on every character's lips.

Hell, no one at my table discusses politics or fashion, and its because we want to get something done and work as a team.

@portrayal of male/female relations:
I could not care one way or the other. In fact, if there was some agenda in that regard, it was thwarted by the grander nihilism, because everybody sucks and everybody is an idiot, equally, in that movie. In a way it belittles any sex-related ideology as it ultimately doesn't matter. ADD: Phasma being a good example: built up to be the female cool-but-evil but still important character...and then just ridiculed.
Training doesn't matter, skill doesn't matter, [in-universe] history doesn't matter, [in-universe] reality doesn't matter, [in-universe] physics doesn't matter, bravery doesn't matter, sacrifice doesn't matter, caring doesn't matter, nothing matters.

@PlayerPolicy: Well, basically I can just say it, without acting on it . All people I like and play with are in agreement. So do not put too much weight on that statement. I have no problems with people not really caring for Star Wars. I think if I met an active fan of TLJ I would be put off by him just for that fact, though. "Who on earth would hate Luke Skywalker so much as to like that movie?"
Most likely I would try to avoid nihilists in general.

rogatny wrote: I - and I imagine Rian Johnson - would disagree on this point. Their idealism was ultimately narcissistic and hypocritical. It only applied to them, but not their parents nor their children. They held their ideals for long as it let them feel good about themselves and then wandered off to whatever belief system made them feel good about themselves next. I think to add anything further would wander off into impermissible politics.

That might be.
But it is not true for the idealist escapism that was Old Star Wars. The good and beautiful in the friendship between Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie and so on, that touched more people from more cultures and generations than anything in the last 100 years save Tolkien.
The naive faith of Luke Skywalker, his perseverance was never selfish and quite literally not about him, about duty to hisparents and duty to Obi-Wan and his friends and the Old Republic.

Now you might say this is a fairy-tale goody-two shoes character. Unrealistic, unconvincing. But for millions and millions of nerds and idealists from three generations, he was a role model. Especially among all the cynicism of so many other genre media. So there are many, many, many grey and troubled and corrupted characters. Very, very few pure ones, like Luke used to be one. There was no need to shit upon him. But no, the nihilist Johnson cannot let good things be good. He could not bear it.

Now, Lucas might have abandoned his ideals. All boomers might have done that in the US, I have no clue. But then to make Luke abandon HIS ideals is giving everybody who liked Luke the finger.
Doing that, Johnson is making excuses for the boomers, he is vindicating their behaviour as inevitable because there can be no good. He is repeating their failures but at the same time taking away blame from them. I think this is even a greater sin.

It is utter nihilism. And an unconvincing, childish one: "Because daddy was a crook, everybody always is a crook and I am one too and you will be one too, soon!"

Bollocks.

Settembrini wrote:...the idealist escapism that was Old Star Wars. The good and beautiful in the friendship between Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie and so on, that touched more people from more cultures and generations than anything in the last 100 years save Tolkien...

Yes. Our stories are the fantasies of Tolkien and the space-fantasies of Old Star Wars.

("Old Star Wars" is a felicitous expression.)

Twitter version:
Reviewer uses many words to muddy 150 minute toy commercial.

That review uses many words to justify perpetuating the false notion of mass generational conflict. The only generational conflicts that do not require confirmation bias, through frequent priming courtesy of Big Advertising, are on the personal level between parents and their children.

Technically, the media would classify me as a boomer. I'm late in that era, so then I'd have at least half of a foot in X. My relatives, friends, co workers and other acquaintances of my lifetime who run from the Greatest Generation through the Boomers, Xs and into the Millenials all exhibit the same human traits from generation to generation.

It would be possible to write a truthful account of any so called generation that would make it indistinguishable from another. It's probably only necessary to avoid the buzz words of any era.

Glad you guys are saying this. The "generational mass conflict" seemed to be a rather bleak scenario. As I am not from the US, I could not know how real it is in the end. In Europe its rather different, albeit some things ring true

As to Old Star Wars bringing people together:
My old Star Wars gaming buddies from the 90ies were asking me to GM WEG SW for them again. Because they were utterly alienated by TFA and especially TLJ.
We took our Star Wars back. We played this Saturday. Everybody had a blast, players were overly joyous. We actually still can conjure up the magic. Our magic.
So many reviewers basically prove that "anybody could write a better script than Johnson for TLJ!"
And this is us, we nerds, we fans, we create on our own. With our friends.

And if the man takes away our toys or poisons them with lead, we ignore them and game on with our own stuff. The way it was meant. Or the way we think it should be or it used to be.

TRP wrote:150 minute toy commercial

You're telling me.

Click here for a breakdown of all Star Wars revenue:
https://www.statisticbrain.com/star-war ... e-revenue/

If I'm understanding that correctly, $16,245,000,000 has been made from Star Wars movies. $26,605,000,000 has been made from Star Wars stuff other than movies. That's 38% from the movies and 62% from the other stuff.