Knights & Knaves Alehouse

TRP wrote: Part of the problem could be their lack of involvement over the past couple of GoT seasons, because they shifted focus to developing, and then running, Westworld. The first season of Westworld was all new material, and it was well-written. So, they are capable of writing, or supervising the writing of, good stuff. Running out of material + not keeping a close eye on the writer's room obviously produced a couple of very disappointing Got seasons. Maybe the first movie, or two, will be good, and then there'll be a drop off when they lose interest.

From what I can see from their interviews after each episode, they have been probably more heavily involved in writing the plot of the last two seasons than the preceding five. I could be misunderstanding, though.

TRP wrote: What they may give us is a good sci-fi movie, but will it be a Star Wars movie? I'll admit, if "Beyond" had not been preceded by "Star Trek", I may not have rated it as foul feces.

I rather liked Star Trek: Beyond, certainly a heck of a lot more than Star Trek: Into Darkness, though the musical death of the drone fleet was way over the top. Maybe because my expectations were low, but I liked the call backs to the original series, such as the parallel of a weary Kirk with a weary Pike in the pilot.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: Star Trek Beyond was fine, for much the same reason that The Last Jedi was fine:- that was the point where they stopped retelling the same story and made something new.

I find it hard to give credence to this. Originality in story telling is at best over rated, and at worst a fiction in itself, but neither Beyond nor Last Jedi seemed particularly new to me regardless.

Falconer wrote:

Excellent.

Matthew wrote:I find it hard to give credence to this. Originality in story telling is at best over rated, and at worst a fiction in itself, but neither Beyond nor Last Jedi seemed particularly new to me regardless.

I'm sorry, I seem to have been unclear. My point was that "Star Trek: Beyond" and "The Last Jedi" are both going new places for their respective franchises. Halfway through TFA I knew it was going to finish with the destruction of another death star, but halfway through TLJ I couldn't call the ending.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: I'm sorry, I seem to have been unclear. My point was that "Star Trek: Beyond" and "The Last Jedi" are both going new places for their respective franchises. Halfway through TFA I knew it was going to finish with the destruction of another death star, but halfway through TLJ I couldn't call the ending.

No, you were clear. They were not going anywhere new for their respective franchises, either. Luke literally did a big old Obi-Wan Kenobi versus Darth Vader. If he had survived, it might have been something new. Rogue One went somewhere new, I suppose, when all the main characters were killed, but that was easy to call. Being able to guess how things are going to turn out is not necessarily a good rubric.

Matthew wrote:

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: I'm sorry, I seem to have been unclear.

No, you were clear.

Fight! Fight! Two men enter the cage, but only one man leaves!

Or at least, a collegial disagreement about a matter of popular culture.

I accept that Star Trek Beyond is a better exemplar of what I mean; but I maintain that TLJ does subvert Star Wars, in unexpected ways, at the plot level. Rey turns out to be a Force Superuser despite her parentage, and not because of it. The maverick hotshot Rebel pilot leading the raid on the Imperial starship turns out not to be the hero. The big bad guy gets killed halfway through the trilogy. It does contain Star Wars tropes but it's just not made of the same stuff as the preceding films.

And that, I think, is why it was so disappointing for the (apparently substantial) proportion of the audience who wanted them to make the same film again.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: Or at least, a collegial disagreement about a matter of popular culture.

Close the cage.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: I accept that Star Trek Beyond is a better exemplar of what I mean ...

I am not sure that it is, but okay.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: ... but I maintain that TLJ does subvert Star Wars, in unexpected ways, at the plot level. Rey turns out to be a Force Superuser despite her parentage, and not because of it. The maverick hotshot Rebel pilot leading the raid on the Imperial starship turns out not to be the hero. The big bad guy gets killed halfway through the trilogy. It does contain Star Wars tropes but it's just not made of the same stuff as the preceding films.

There is nothing unusual particularly about Rey not being descended from another Jedi. In fact, that is normal in the Star Wars universe [e.g. Anakin], and Luke and Leia are exceptional in having Jedi parentage. Major villains being killed off before the end is no big deal either, as that happens repeatedly in the prequels (Maul, Jango, Dooku, Grevious). These were, however, things that TFA set up as being important, and then were subverted by TLJ, a bait and switch if you will. Poe's "growing up" is probably the most original element and is again a subversion of expectations created by TFA, but it is not very well handled either, which brings me to my core objection ...

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: And that, I think, is why it was so disappointing for the (apparently substantial) proportion of the audience who wanted them to make the same film again.

I certainly did not want to see the same film again, and I very much doubt that there was a substantial proportion of the audience who wanted to either. Star Killer Base was accepted with a sigh, but often pointed to as the weakest element of TFA. Everyone was primed for something new, but what we got was a lot of retreaded and reworked elements of Star Wars in a not very good film. [e.g. Rey and Ren team up to beat Snoke, mirroring Vader's offer to Luke to team up and beat the emperor, and with predicable results: Rey and Ren become opposed, just like Vader and Luke would have].

Now, it is possible to argue that in subverting basic ideas about Star Wars [e.g. Yoda's ghost using lightning to burn down the Jedi temple, laughing all the time ... I really thought he might turn out to be Snoke in disguise at one point] that the film was something new and (more importantly) better, but purposefully subverting the themes of Star Wars is not taking the franchise in a new direction, it is writing Elric in response to Lord of the Rings.

Well, it was worth torrenting. I can say that much.

I finally watched it last night. I think it is a clunker, and I'm glad I didn't pay to see it in a theater. The worst things for me were:

Lightsabre fights: horrible choreography, halting, clunking action

The plain old implausibility of so many things. There were too many times I said, "Why the fuck doesn't X do Y?", but then, the movie would have ended several times, starting about 5 minutes into the damn thing.

So, despite going in with the lowest expectations for a movie I ever had, it failed to meet even those minimal standards.

Grade: no popcorn, and gimmee back my money (I rented it from Amazon Prime).

Question for Falconer:

I know you admire Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy:
1. Heir to the Empire (1991)
2. Dark Force Rising (1992)
3. The Last Command (1993)

What are your thoughts on Timothy Zahn's Hand of Thrawn duology?
1. Specter of the Past (1997)
2. Vision of the Future (1998)

I have lots of thoughts about it. The short version is that it’s a beautiful work of literature. If you’re looking for more “Adventures of Luke Skywalker” after the OT, those five books are the real deal. I’ll get around to posting the long version eventually, but if there are any more specific follow-up questions I’d be very happy to discuss them. In fact I am just finishing a re-read of Specter today.

Falconer wrote:I have lots of thoughts about it. The short version is that it’s a beautiful work of literature. If you’re looking for more “Adventures of Luke Skywalker” after the OT, those five books are the real deal. I’ll get around to posting the long version eventually, but if there are any more specific follow-up questions I’d be very happy to discuss them. In fact I am just finishing a re-read of Specter today.

I really enjoyed the Thrawn trilogy when I read it back in the day. Maybe I ought to re-read it. Struggling to enjoy any sort of fantasy/fiction these days

Traveling for work, watched The Last Jedi in the hotel. Horrible. I want those 152 minutes of my life back.

Sidebar: Been listening to the NPR Radio Drama of the original Star Wars. It is most excellent. It has it's own tale of how the rebels got the deathstar plans.

Chainsaw wrote: Traveling for work, watched The Last Jedi in the hotel. Horrible. I want those 152 minutes of my life back.

Welcome.

francisca wrote:Sidebar: Been listening to the NPR Radio Drama of the original Star Wars. It is most excellent.

Love it!