Knights & Knaves Alehouse

bobjester wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:The only aspects of the movie that for me have that "Star Wars feel" are some of the visuals on the salt planet, Crait. I liked the red rooster tails and explosions on the planet's white surface, and I loved the Millennium Falcon swooping through that vast crystalline cave system. Now that is magic. Everything else I found ridiculous or mediocre.

I'll see it for that then, not the revisionist bullshit (see Dungeon Monkey's excellent post above).

I would estimate that all of that is in the last half hour or so of the movie. Make sure you don't take a bathroom break during this time! I'd say that the Falcon in the crystalline cavern is no more than a minute of screentime. You don't want to sit through two and a half hours and miss the good stuff.

EOTB wrote:The lesson of Star Wars is: "be careful what you wish for, it might come true" remains as valid today as it ever was.

Before the late 90s, the unknowns of the SW universe/timeline were whatever someone wanted them to be. After that there could be only winners and losers.

Yes. Wise words!

DungeonMonkey wrote:Lucas did not gloss over the angst, he simply did not include it in the story, period. The angst you're describing just is not in the original trilogy and quite deliberately so. The Jedi could no more return if Luke gave in to despair and bitterness than if he joined the Emperor.

Luke is anguished to learn that Vader is is father and possibly succumbs to despair momentarily in Cloud City after their duel in The Empire Strikes Back. But even after learning that Obi Wan and Yoda had concealed Vader's identity from him, what does he do? He returns to Yoda to complete his training as a Jedi, which is hardly consistent with the thesis that he's bitter over the concealment or regards the Jedi order as a lie.

And Obi Wan's and Yoda's belief that Vader cannot be saved is ultimately mistaken, but there's no reason to think it is a lie (i.e., that they know he could be saved but are concealing that fact for some reason).

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. The original trilogy's content is what it is. Han shot first no matter what edits were subsequently made; and Luke was triumphant, not angst-ridden, not bitter, not broken.

You think what he's experiencing after being rescued under Cloud City isn't angst and bitterness? One liners like "Noooo! Nooooo!" and "Ben, why didn't you tell me???"

And it gets glossed over in ROTJ. "Hey Ben, the fuck did you lie to me for?" "Oh well, it's a certain point of view." "A certain point of view?" "Luke you're gonna find out it's okay to lie to someone about their father in order to manipulate him into patricide."

Luke's mission in ROTJ is to redeem his father... something the all wise Jedi said couldn't be done. THAT'S why he's smiling at the end... he saw his father whole again.

Wheggi wrote:Still haven’t seen this fucking movie. At this rate I imagine it will be out of theaters before I get around to it.

I'm right there with you. I imagine I'll see it eventually, but it might also become another Avatar or new Conan for me, something everyone else has seen and I just... haven't.

blackprinceofmuncie wrote:

Wheggi wrote:Still haven’t seen this fucking movie. At this rate I imagine it will be out of theaters before I get around to it.

I'm right there with you. I imagine I'll see it eventually, but it might also become another Avatar or new Conan for me, something everyone else has seen and I just... haven't.

I still haven't either. Part of it is my back, but... if I were really motivated to see it, I would put up with the pain.

I don't know (and don't care) what boomers are, or ex-boomers, or boomexers or nextgen-ers or whatever. I know what was cool: Star Wars and Empire. Everything else is a steaming pile-- some bigger piles than others. (Except the last 10 minutes of Rogue 1. That was pretty cool, too.)

JCBoney wrote:

DungeonMonkey wrote:Lucas did not gloss over the angst, he simply did not include it in the story, period. The angst you're describing just is not in the original trilogy and quite deliberately so. The Jedi could no more return if Luke gave in to despair and bitterness than if he joined the Emperor.

Luke is anguished to learn that Vader is is father and possibly succumbs to despair momentarily in Cloud City after their duel in The Empire Strikes Back. But even after learning that Obi Wan and Yoda had concealed Vader's identity from him, what does he do? He returns to Yoda to complete his training as a Jedi, which is hardly consistent with the thesis that he's bitter over the concealment or regards the Jedi order as a lie.

And Obi Wan's and Yoda's belief that Vader cannot be saved is ultimately mistaken, but there's no reason to think it is a lie (i.e., that they know he could be saved but are concealing that fact for some reason).

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. The original trilogy's content is what it is. Han shot first no matter what edits were subsequently made; and Luke was triumphant, not angst-ridden, not bitter, not broken.

You think what he's experiencing after being rescued under Cloud City isn't angst and bitterness? One liners like "Noooo! Nooooo!" and "Ben, why didn't you tell me???"

And it gets glossed over in ROTJ. "Hey Ben, the fuck did you lie to me for?" "Oh well, it's a certain point of view." "A certain point of view?" "Luke you're gonna find out it's okay to lie to someone about their father in order to manipulate him into patricide."

Luke's mission in ROTJ is to redeem his father... something the all wise Jedi said couldn't be done. THAT'S why he's smiling at the end... he saw his father whole again.

The problem is that you're imparting a meaning to these words and scenes that they won't bear in context. Of course, Luke is anguished during and after his first confrontation with Vader; he's in shock and he doesn't get why Obi Wan and Yoda failed to tell him Vader's true identity. But he does not become embittered, give up, or resent Obi Wan or Yoda.

We know this because he returns to Dagobah to complete his training, because he has a rational conversation with Yoda (whom he refers to as "Master" and gently covers with a blanket) about Vader's identity. The details matter; watch that scene again. Luke takes umbrage when he thinks Yoda is suggesting that it's unfortunate that Luke now knows the truth, Yoda clarifies, and Luke apologizes ("I'm sorry"). That's not the behavior of someone who is who feels betrayed by his mentors.

He also has a conversation with Obi Wan's shade there, and while Luke does seem a bit incredulous at Obi Wan's observations about truth and perspective, their conversation continues on in a fairly pleasant manner well after that; I know the acting in these films leaves something to be desired, but nothing about their conversation that follows comes off as acrimonious.

And Luke affectionately smiles at them - Yoda, Obi Wan, and Anakin - in the final scene of the third movie. Again, rewatch that scene; it's just incompatible with the thesis that Luke has an axe to grind where they are concerned. You more or less have to ignore a lot of details in the original trilogy to see Luke embittered in a manner or to an extent consistent with the disillusioned hermit of the new films.

DungeonMonkey wrote:

JCBoney wrote:

DungeonMonkey wrote:Lucas did not gloss over the angst, he simply did not include it in the story, period. The angst you're describing just is not in the original trilogy and quite deliberately so. The Jedi could no more return if Luke gave in to despair and bitterness than if he joined the Emperor.

Luke is anguished to learn that Vader is is father and possibly succumbs to despair momentarily in Cloud City after their duel in The Empire Strikes Back. But even after learning that Obi Wan and Yoda had concealed Vader's identity from him, what does he do? He returns to Yoda to complete his training as a Jedi, which is hardly consistent with the thesis that he's bitter over the concealment or regards the Jedi order as a lie.

And Obi Wan's and Yoda's belief that Vader cannot be saved is ultimately mistaken, but there's no reason to think it is a lie (i.e., that they know he could be saved but are concealing that fact for some reason).

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. The original trilogy's content is what it is. Han shot first no matter what edits were subsequently made; and Luke was triumphant, not angst-ridden, not bitter, not broken.

You think what he's experiencing after being rescued under Cloud City isn't angst and bitterness? One liners like "Noooo! Nooooo!" and "Ben, why didn't you tell me???"

And it gets glossed over in ROTJ. "Hey Ben, the fuck did you lie to me for?" "Oh well, it's a certain point of view." "A certain point of view?" "Luke you're gonna find out it's okay to lie to someone about their father in order to manipulate him into patricide."

Luke's mission in ROTJ is to redeem his father... something the all wise Jedi said couldn't be done. THAT'S why he's smiling at the end... he saw his father whole again.

The problem is that you're imparting a meaning to these words and scenes that they won't bear in context. Of course, Luke is anguished during and after his first confrontation with Vader; he's in shock and he doesn't get why Obi Wan and Yoda failed to tell him Vader's true identity. But he does not become embittered, give up, or resent Obi Wan or Yoda.

We know this because he returns to Dagobah to complete his training, because he has a rational conversation with Yoda (whom he refers to as "Master" and gently covers with a blanket) about Vader's identity. The details matter; watch that scene again. Luke takes umbrage when he thinks Yoda is suggesting that it's unfortunate that Luke now knows the truth, Yoda clarifies, and Luke apologizes ("I'm sorry"). That's not the behavior of someone who is who feels betrayed by his mentors.

He also has a conversation with Obi Wan's shade there, and while Luke does seem a bit incredulous at Obi Wan's observations about truth and perspective, their conversation continues on in a fairly pleasant manner well after that; I know the acting in these films leaves something to be desired, but nothing about their conversation that follows comes off as acrimonious.

And Luke affectionately smiles at them - Yoda, Obi Wan, and Anakin - in the final scene of the third movie. Again, rewatch that scene; it's just incompatible with the thesis that Luke has an axe to grind where they are concerned. You more or less have to ignore a lot of details in the original trilogy to see Luke embittered in a manner or to an extent consistent with the disillusioned hermit of the new films.

Yeah, you do realize that ROTJ is a shittily written movie with the depth of a glass of water, that it does nothing but tie up loose ends from ESB and is pretty much a marketing ploy for ewoks and their shitty little cartoon, don't you?

Really, I am not sure this has anything to do with social politics. As the eighth episode in the Star Wars film series, The Last Jedi was incoherent, unsatisfying, and quite boring. It was a visual spectacle and well acted, but that is to be expected. There are plenty of other films that many other people think are fantastic, but I think are lacklustre, so I should not really be surprised that I finally find myself in the minority over a Star Wars film. Mind you, I recall Thor (2011) had a much higher approval rating on its initial release than the 77% it now stands at on Rotten Tomatoes (I gave it 5/10). Currently, The Last Jedi stands at 96%/90%/49% on the same website and 7.5 on IMDB (The Force Awakens and Rogue One are rated at 8.0 and 7.8, respectively).

Matthew wrote:so I should not really be surprised-- ACK!

SNIP-- Last 10 mins of Rogue1!

austinjimm wrote: SNIP-- Last 10 mins of Rogue1!

I thought that the whole Scariff offensive was pretty great. The last scene with Leia not so much.

Matthew wrote:I thought that the whole-- ACK!

SNIP! LAst 10 minutes of rogue1!

JCBoney wrote:Quote me one line where anyone gives a damn about the Jedi Order. The closest you can get is Yoda's plea to "pass on what you have learned" and then he says "there's another Skywalker." Now, he didn't just change the subject. He meant for Leia to be trained as well because only the children of Skywalker are strong enough to take down Vader and the Emperor.

Turn your question on its head: based on the original trilogy, is there any plausible destiny for Luke other than Jedi master who begets a new order of Jedi? What else is there? Retirement to Uncle Owen's farm? Nerf herder? Benighted as they are, even the new movies assume Luke would try to make new Jedi.

There is in fact material from the original trilogy that indicates that's Luke's destiny. First, a very general point. Second, a specific but of dialogue that you reference. The latter is the more important one, but the first one provides useful context.

First, becoming a Jedi is not the equivalent of learning to fence with a light saber. It is a faith commitment. Star Wars repeatedly characterizes the Jedi order as a religion: Admiral Motti chides Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" and Vader rejoins that his "lack of faith" is disturbing; Han snidely jokes that "hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster" while Luke trains on the Falcon; Grand Moff Tarkin says that the Jedi are extinct and tells Vader that he is "all that is left of their ancient religion." Obi Wan also refers to the Jedi as "knights" who were "guardians of peace and justice" for more than a thousand years. They're like the Arthurian court or paladins; it's not something that one tries on and casts off like an ill-fitting garment. I make this point only because so many today seem to have difficulty relating to religious believers. Having felt the force in his life in significant ways (such as blowing up the Death Star without the benefit of the targeting system), Luke is not likely to up and walk away just because the going gets tough. He has not pledged a frat or joined 4H; he's born again, and making new believers is part and parcel of that.*

Second, your reference to Yoda's request for Luke to pass on what he knows. Yoda says this after telling Luke that when he (Yoda) dies (and that death is imminent), Luke will be the only living Jedi that remains. In other words, if Luke does not pass on what he knows, then the Jedi are over. It's about as explicit a statement to continue the Jedi as could have occcured. And Luke, who is very devoted to Yoda during this scene, is not likely to disappoint his "Master" (Luke's phrasing).


* The ability to put yourself in that headspace (even if you do not share it) helps you see interpretive alternatives other than the most cynical possibilities as well. For example, one could read Obi Wan's speech in Return of the Jedi about truth being a matter of perspective very cynically. But go back and watch the scene in Star Wars when he trains Luke in the use of the light saber on the Falcon. At one point, he tells Luke: "Your eyes can deceive you; don't trust them." The elusive nature of truth (that your own sense of the truth may be illusory) is something that Obi Wan is serious about from the beginning. I think Obi Wan is earnest about perspective. (That doesn't mean he's right. Maybe he is; maybe he is not. But he's not necessarily being disingenuous; I think it likely that he believes what he is saying.)


As a sort of postscript, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the quality of Return of the Jedi. I think folks are unduly distracted by the Ewoks. It tied up the series nicely and was faithful to the material that preceded it. Contra the J.J. Abrams method of television and film, in which loose ends are never tied up and the ending is some sort of non-explanatory explanation, the third movie in a trilogy ought to tie eveything off in a nice bow.

JCBoney wrote:So, assuming that what I posted above is the truth, is Luke going to face his own redemption as his father did? Anakin ultimately believed that the Jedi were a bunch of evil liars. That gets proven to an extent, so maybe Luke was right in believing it was time for the Jedi to die.

That is an interesting theory.
Since Luke died at the end, what 'redemption' can he now get?

Geoffry wrote:The only aspects of the movie that for me have that "Star Wars feel" are some of the visuals on the salt planet, Crait. I liked the red rooster tails and explosions on the planet's white surface, and I loved the Millennium Falcon swooping through that vast crystalline cave system. Now that is magic. Everything else I found ridiculous or mediocre.

Strange, i didn't like the whole cave scene. While yes i can invision a cave system that LONG< i can't see one being THAT open..

JCBoney wrote: The OT was very clear on the difference between light and dark use of the force (unless Ben and Yoda were lying about that too). It treats the light side and dark side as specific "places to be" each with a path.

For example, Yoda taught “You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

Did Luke look calm and at peace when he went ape shit on Vader? Then there's this:

I agree. I've always seen the force as good/evil Light/dark.. Not this new fandango "living force, your intent matters crap Vergre brought up..

JCBoney wrote: “Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.”

Yeah, that's more like Luke. Only when he saw Vader's artificial limb did he realize he was becoming his father... and then he quit fighting.

Which in a way is not in compliance with what Yoda said, since luke DID dabble in the dark side, but it didn't dominate him from then on.

Matthew wrote:

austinjimm wrote: SNIP-- Last 10 mins of Rogue1!

I thought that the whole Scariff offensive was pretty great. The last scene with Leia not so much.

I'd say minus the parts of her in jail, watching The hand over of that turncoat pilot and maybe the whole 'mind squid thing' the entire Rogue one was awesome!

garhkal wrote:I'd say minus the parts of her in--ACK!!

SNIP!@!! LAst 10 min of Rogur1!!!