Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Kalex the Omen wrote:

DungeonDork wrote:A premanufactured campaign setting holds little to no interest to me.
I feel comfortable enough with my own setting and what I've been able to create for it.
I just don't understand what the appeal of this is supposed to be.

Sure, not of interest to you and there is nothing wrong with that, but you seriously can't understand how a fully realized setting could possibly be useful to someone other than yourself? There are plenty of people who don't want to, or don't have the time to put the level of work required into creating their own setting. I'm sure that isn't hard to understand.

I think the game already gives you all the tools you need to do it yourself.
If people won't or don't want to take the time that's their business.

T. Foster wrote:This looks hellaciously bad, like the worst of c. 1988 TSR. Where are Rose Estes and Jean Rabe?

More seriously, where is Jeff Grubb? He was extremely prolific at TSR c. 1983-95, co-creator of both the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms settings, creator of the Al-Qadim and Spelljammer settings, developer on the Monster Manual II and Unearthed Arcana, and author of Manual of the Planes and tons of other modules and novels (not to mention the entire Marvel Superheroes game and one of the Buck Rogers games). He continued doing freelance design work through the d20 era and was also, IIRC, a "consultant" on D&D 5E, alongside various OSR blogger-luminaries. Second only to, arguably, Zeb Cook he pretty much defined the feel of AD&D from the mid 80s through the mid 90s. Since that seems to be the period Frank is seeking to emulate here, it's surprising that Grubb isn't on board. Maybe he and Frank are still working on terms? Maybe he's saving this announcement as last-minute breaking news to help push it over the top?

DungeonDork wrote:I think the game already gives you all the tools you need to do it yourself.
If people won't or don't want to take the time that's their business.

Oh I agree that it does! I just found it hard to believe that you couldn't understand the appeal of having something ready made. I'm in for $75 and I'll probably never use the setting. I am heavily invested in a Greyhawk campaign right now, and I have a setting of my own. Still I expect there will be things in there that I can use, or riff off of for my own campaigns.

T. Foster wrote:This looks hellaciously bad, like the worst of c. 1988 TSR. Where are Rose Estes and Jean Rabe?

Agreed. This is like opening a time capsule, or getting a whiff of a pungent smell strongly associated with a memory.

Kalex the Omen wrote:I'm in for $75 and I'll probably never use the setting.

You and at least a couple hundred other people.

We'll see if it funds. If it doesn't get to 50% in the first 3 days I don't think it will have the legs. But who knows.

Kalex the Omen wrote:

DungeonDork wrote:I think the game already gives you all the tools you need to do it yourself.
If people won't or don't want to take the time that's their business.

Oh I agree that it does! I just found it hard to believe that you couldn't understand the appeal of having something ready made. I'm in for $75 and I'll probably never use the setting. I am heavily invested in a Greyhawk campaign right now, and I have a setting of my own. Still I expect there will be things in there that I can use, or riff off of for my own campaigns.

For 75 bucks I can buy a lot of material that is already proven.

Kalex the Omen wrote:

DungeonDork wrote:I think the game already gives you all the tools you need to do it yourself.
If people won't or don't want to take the time that's their business.

Oh I agree that it does! I just found it hard to believe that you couldn't understand the appeal of having something ready made. I'm in for $75 and I'll probably never use the setting. I am heavily invested in a Greyhawk campaign right now, and I have a setting of my own. Still I expect there will be things in there that I can use, or riff off of for my own campaigns.

I'm not knocking your support of anything anyone produces, but I just want to point out that this is the exact opposite stance that Gary had just before printing G1-3 40 years ago.

He thought that it was absurd that D&D players would want anyone else to create games for them, assuming that with the right set of tools, one could, and was expected to create their own settings, dungeons and adventures.

I, for one really appreciate games like this, as they offer the freedom to use your own creativity, imagination, and also frees up your bank account.

bobjester wrote:

Kalex the Omen wrote:

DungeonDork wrote:I think the game already gives you all the tools you need to do it yourself.
If people won't or don't want to take the time that's their business.

Oh I agree that it does! I just found it hard to believe that you couldn't understand the appeal of having something ready made. I'm in for $75 and I'll probably never use the setting. I am heavily invested in a Greyhawk campaign right now, and I have a setting of my own. Still I expect there will be things in there that I can use, or riff off of for my own campaigns.

I'm not knocking your support of anything anyone produces, but I just want to point out that this is the exact opposite stance that Gary had just before printing G1-3 40 years ago.

He thought that it was absurd that D&D players would want anyone else to create games for them, assuming that with the right set of tools, one could, and was expected to create their own settings, dungeons and adventures.

I, for one really appreciate games like this, as they offer the freedom to use your own creativity, imagination, and also frees up your bank account.

The great secret hidden in plain sight about D&D is that you need hardly anything to play it and still have fun.

Could this Kickstarter have been accidentally launched prematurely? I've heard instances of that happening where the creator is building the KS page and accidentally launches. Some of the art and graphics seem very crude and preliminary, esp. when it is juxtaposed with a Quarter Million Dollar funding ask and the very aggressive July 2018 delivery date.

EOTB wrote:

T. Foster wrote:This looks hellaciously bad, like the worst of c. 1988 TSR. Where are Rose Estes and Jean Rabe?

Agreed. This is like opening a time capsule, or getting a whiff of a strong smell strongly associated with a memory.

Kalex the Omen wrote:I'm in for $75 and I'll probably never use the setting.

You and at least a couple hundred other people.

We'll see if it funds. If it doesn't get to 50% in the first 3 days I don't think it will have the legs. But who knows.

Well I don't know much about KS statistics, but we didn't break 50% on our first campaign until the 5th day and we reached our funding goal 11 days before the end of the campaign. Frank says this is a test of the market for such things. If this funds there will be more product to come in the form of supplements and adventures and so forth, but this one has got to do well first. We'll see if the gamble pays off.

I assume it will fund, because I have very little faith in people's taste and judgment.

Does he specify anywhere what level of contributions all these "legends" are going to be making (other than Margaret Weis' foreword)? I mean, isn't it almost a given that most of those artists are going to do a single sketch apiece and the writers are going to contribute a 50-word NPC description, leaving 90+% of the text and art by the in-house staff? Frank is heavily hyping the "all-star design team" as a Major Event (IIRC he claimed in his promotional PM to EOTB at Dragonsfoot that it was "the biggest cross-industry event in 30 years") but isn't it almost certainly just a gimmick? And if it isn't, is there any way a product designed by 15 different authors and 16 different artists with very different styles is going to be anything other than a totally incoherent mess?

Terrex wrote:Could this Kickstarter have been accidentally launched prematurely? I've heard instances of that happening where the creator is building the KS page and accidentally launches. Some of the art and graphics seem very crude and preliminary, esp. when it is juxtaposed with a Quarter Million Dollar funding ask and the very aggressive July 2018 delivery date.

I believe this has been in the planning for months/years now, in fact I think the release date of the KS was pushed back several months to Oct 2nd from ... July(?)

But it does feel very premature, considering the DF/Mentzer fallout just wrapped up, and although the waters are calm again, memories are still fresh.

Terrex wrote:Could this Kickstarter have been accidentally launched prematurely? I've heard instances of that happening where the creator is building the KS page and accidentally launches. Some of the art and graphics seem very crude and preliminary, esp. when it is juxtaposed with a Quarter Million Dollar funding ask and the very aggressive July 2018 delivery date.

No. FWIW Frank publicized the launch date. From what I gather a lot of the team was assembled after Frank committed to this course (Zeb came literally in the last hour before launch), and I understand more system publishers are asking to be added to the list. Not sure who did the graphics and illustration, but we team assembled is a known quantity. They are professionals with long experience at this, and a large body of work to set expectations from.

Kalex, are you associated with this kickstarter? You're responding to almost every comment about it that is not positive in any way.

Edit - as near as I can tell, the main upsell is that you can pay Frank to tell him about your character and he will write it into the setting.

Kalex the Omen wrote:

Terrex wrote:Could this Kickstarter have been accidentally launched prematurely? I've heard instances of that happening where the creator is building the KS page and accidentally launches. Some of the art and graphics seem very crude and preliminary, esp. when it is juxtaposed with a Quarter Million Dollar funding ask and the very aggressive July 2018 delivery date.

No. FWIW Frank publicized the launch date. From what I gather a lot of the team was assembled after Frank committed to this course (Zeb came literally in the last hour before launch), and I understand more system publishers are asking to be added to the list. Not sure who did the graphics and illustration, but we team assembled is a known quantity. They are professionals with long experience at this, and a large body of work to set expectations from.

You are involved with the KS, aren't you? I remember someone from Fire Born games involved with the KS posting heavily at Tenkar's supporting the hope that Frank had been hacked.

Not that it couldn't have happened, but just for the sake of clarity. It is obvious that you support Empyrea, and that's okay, but the only pimping going on here is Wheggi.

EOTB wrote:Kalex, are you associated with this kickstarter? You're responding to almost every comment about it that is not positive in any way.

No, I just like Frank and am excited about the prospect of an entity like TSR in the 80s existing again. I said to Frank a few years ago, "why don't all of you ex-TSR folks get together again and do something." I guess they are. FTR I am not taking credit for anything, I assume this was always a thought for a very long time.

I'm not sure I understand the full scope of things, but it seems that there is much more to this than just a setting that Frank wrote. Everything I've been told is kind of nebulous, but I think there are possibly some very interesting publishing ideas behind the scenes.

And I'm wary about responding to all the negative comments. I don't want to get dragged into any flame wars or anything. I'd just like the KS to succeed so I can get my box. I'd even like to freelance for Loxley if the opportunity arises.