Knights & Knaves Alehouse

T. Foster wrote:I think mapping is inherently lame and a sort of necessary evil

I've DM'ed several dungeons where the party is presented with a map of a ruin, castle, whatever that has some problem (Ravenloft, for example). While the map leaves out secret rooms, secret doors, and some other things, it makes the mapping much less of an issue. Furthermore, I make these maps with a big enough grid so miniatures can be used so players can move their characters around, showing placement, etc... This makes monster encounters highly visual and encourages tactics like avoiding line of fire or using doorways to maximize the number of attackers on opponents, etc... Of course, this means lots of preparation work for the DM......

Above ground it's easy to have some perception of the general layout of a building or castle from it's shape. I think a "player's map" makes sense here. Below ground, if it's only a few rooms they can be appropriate as well, say the case of a lair or a small cave. Once you get into the dungeon, it sort of becomes a mini-game, and good mappers will enjoy figuring out the twists and turns and finding the areas where hidden rooms may be. What the problem I have encountered the most is, difficulty describing rooms to the players or the players just being unable to translate them onto their own map. I'm sure a lot of us have had the "no, that's still wrong, let me draw it for you" moment.

francisca wrote:

bobjester wrote:I can't get a single one of them to put a pencil to graph or hex paper, even to make an overland map. They don't take notes and can't recall even the important encounters or events from session to session.

Party: We go back to town.
DM: Okay, how do you leave the Dungeon?
Party: We just go back to town.
DM: Well, okay, you are 3 levels deep, having traversed many passages. What route OUT OF THE DUNGEON do you take?
Party: ?????
DM: <rolls a 1 on a wandering monster check>
DM: <rolls 1 on a surprise check>
DM: You are beset by a group of well armed Ogres, they get one free round of attacks.

That's how you fix that.

I personally like this advice. A.lot.

We have similar attitudes in our long running AD&D Wilderlands campaign. If Grodog isn't present for some reason, the rest of the players are hesitant to become the mapper. All too often, I cave in and help them with the mapping.

To continue this derailment and elaborate on my last post I think mapping is inherently lame and a sort of necessary evil as a player. As a DM I love complex maps - I love drawing them, and seeing them from others, and using them in play. I just think that it's generally a waste of time and unnecessary for the players to try to recreate them when a trailing map or navigational trick (or even just a good memory) will almost always work just as well. Like just about everything else in the game it's situational and there is no one-size-fits-all solution. There will be certain circumstances where it's beneficial (or even necessary) for the players to try to draw an accurate map (such as when they're trying to reach a known set of coordinates, or to suss out the location of a hidden area), but there are more circumstances where it's a waste of time, and it's the mark of a superior player to recognize which are which

T. Foster wrote:There will be certain circumstances where it's beneficial (or even necessary) for the players to try to draw an accurate map (such as when they're trying to reach a known set of coordinates, or to suss out the location of a hidden area), but there are more circumstances where it's a waste of time, and it's the mark of a superior player to recognize which are which

Or put another way:
May the Dieties & Demigods give me
the serenity to accept the player's map I can not change,
the courage to change the errors I can,
and a high wisdom score to know the difference.

Ahh, sorry for the mapping derail, but I think it is just a single symptom of how much table-top D&D gaming has changed, and, not able to watch* Celebrity D&D to see what goes on in those vids, I assumed that mapping is one of the long-lost arts of traditional D&D/AD&D games.

(*because they're boring, voices = nails-on-chalkboard painful to listen to, or both...)

Logistics: (buying, maintaining, and tracking used gear and encumbrance) takes a backseat with my players too, and that, with the non-mappers, also grinds my gears. Perhaps these matters are best left to another thread, but the question still stands: what old school/traditional AD&D tropes do they maintain, if any, in any of these celeb AD&D vids?

Do they support mapping (not battle-grids), logistics such as tracking spent ammo, used rations, and encumbrance? When someone's character gets weighed down by loot, do they hand-wave it or do they say "Hey guys, its time to go back to the city. I can't carry any more!"

As a DM, I hate keeping track of this shit for the players, and I know damn well that none of them are doing it, because no one else is doing it.

How about sandbox play? Someone mentioned 'storygames' in Shutupwesely's celeb D&D game, so I wonder just how much sand in the cracks these celebs are willing to get.

Its these 3 things I highlighted in my "old school" 5e campaign: sandbox setting, logistics, exploration, and (FOUR things I highlighted in my "old school" 5e campaign) mapping, but the only thing I seem to be doing right (on my end anyhoo) is maintaining an entertaining and interesting sandbox to play in.

francisca wrote:

bobjester wrote:I can't get a single one of them to put a pencil to graph or hex paper, even to make an overland map. They don't take notes and can't recall even the important encounters or events from session to session.

Party: We go back to town.
DM: Okay, how do you leave the Dungeon?
Party: We just go back to town.
DM: Well, okay, you are 3 levels deep, having traversed many passages. What route OUT OF THE DUNGEON do you take?
Party: ?????
DM: <rolls a 1 on a wandering monster check>
DM: <rolls 1 on a surprise check>
DM: You are beset by a group of well armed Ogres, they get one free round of attacks.

That's how you fix that.

And it doesn't just have to be in a dungeon they are that 'borked'.. If they are in fresh wilderness the've got a good chance of getting lost..

T. Foster wrote:Yeah, player unwillingness to draw maps mostly comes from them not seeing the need - if the dungeon is more-or-less a straight line from encounter to encounter and there's no chance of getting lost, then there's no reason to draw a map (especially not a scale map). But once you drop them into a complex, branching maze and they realize they're going to have to find their own way back to the surface, then a map (or at least some sort of marking guide*) starts to seem like a better idea. If the players are drawing a map it should be because they chose to because they realize they need it, not because the DM told them they have to.

True. If they spend most of their time out doors/castle sacking (and yes i've seen some groups who never went dungeoneering for over a year IN GAME), they don't see a need.
But it's also an issue of 'which character is doing it'.. Do they have writing utensils.. Any skill for it..

benjoshua wrote:

T. Foster wrote:I think mapping is inherently lame and a sort of necessary evil

I've DM'ed several dungeons where the party is presented with a map of a ruin, castle, whatever that has some problem (Ravenloft, for example). While the map leaves out secret rooms, secret doors, and some other things, it makes the mapping much less of an issue. Furthermore, I make these maps with a big enough grid so miniatures can be used so players can move their characters around, showing placement, etc... This makes monster encounters highly visual and encourages tactics like avoiding line of fire or using doorways to maximize the number of attackers on opponents, etc... Of course, this means lots of preparation work for the DM......

I've done similar. Make up a rough draft map of 'Hey this older adventuring band said they started getting this place cleaned out but lost several members. After a while they simply forgot about it.. And leave out 1/3 to 1/2 of the actual complex there, along with sec doors etc from it..

T. Foster wrote:I just think that it's generally a waste of time and unnecessary for the players to try to recreate them when a trailing map or navigational trick (or even just a good memory) will almost always work just as well.

If you can ask the players "So who remembers how to get out of here" and no one can verbalise it, then obviously their memory is faulty..