Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Falconer wrote: Well GRRM said he wanted a Tolkienesque ending, so that’s why people bring it up.

Oh really? That would be lame.

Consider also that all the spin-off TV series that they are talking about take place in the past, not the future.

I see the appeal of your pulp hero — John Carter or Drizzt or Brandoch Daha — just going on forever having adventures and enjoying victory after victory in a magical world that never ends. I honestly do. It is “lame” that one has to grow up, and can’t just stay forever in Narnia or Oz; but really, one can’t, unless one wants to be Don Quixote. So, are we really meant to admire those incestuous kings and queens of Westeros, the badass Targaryens, and root for them to win in the end and keep it going forever? I mean, it was okay for those children — Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy — to be kings and queens together, right? Only as children!

Falconer wrote:Consider also that all the spin-off TV series that they are talking about take place in the past, not the future.

I see the appeal of your pulp hero — John Carter or Drizzt or Brandoch Daha — just going on forever having adventures and enjoying victory after victory in a magical world that never ends. I honestly do. It is “lame” that one has to grow up, and can’t just stay forever in Narnia or Oz; but really, one can’t, unless one wants to be Don Quixote. So, are we really meant to admire those incestuous kings and queens of Westeros, the badass Targaryens, and root for them to win in the end and keep it going forever? I mean, it was okay for those children — Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy — to be kings and queens together, right? Only as children!

Has anyone read the pre-quel book from GRRM? I have a copy but haven't read it. I believe it iss an anthology.

Falconer wrote: I see the appeal of your pulp hero — John Carter or Drizzt or Brandoch Daha — just going on forever having adventures and enjoying victory after victory in a magical world that never ends. I honestly do. It is “lame” that one has to grow up, and can’t just stay forever in Narnia or Oz; but really, one can’t, unless one wants to be Don Quixote. So, are we really meant to admire those incestuous kings and queens of Westeros, the badass Targaryens, and root for them to win in the end and keep it going forever? I mean, it was okay for those children — Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy — to be kings and queens together, right? Only as children!

Erm, no. It is lame because I would like to see something more inventive and original. I can see the appeal of conforming to a known workable ending, but it seems to me that it is boring to go down that well trodden path of "and magic was no more, the world had changed, become less, and yet more, for the age of man was come!" or whatever.

Matthew wrote:Erm, no. It is lame because I would like to see something more inventive and original. I can see the appeal of conforming to a known workable ending, but it seems to me that it is boring to go down that well trodden path of "and magic was no more, the world had changed, become less, and yet more, for the age of man was come!" or whatever.

I say it's a possibility because it was strongly implied in the books that various magical things (like wildfire production and the powers of the Red Priests) became stronger after the dragons were born. So I believe those things may also go out together.

As for an "inventive and original" ending, I think the HBO guys will do the best they can (which is hit or miss). I don't think Martin will give us an ending at all. It has nothing to do with his age or life expectancy. I think he choked on the fourth and (especially) the fifth book, lost the plot, and can't get it back. If he still had a real desire to finish, he wouldn't be messing around writing prequels. Sorry to say!

Blackadder23 wrote:

Matthew wrote:Erm, no. It is lame because I would like to see something more inventive and original. I can see the appeal of conforming to a known workable ending, but it seems to me that it is boring to go down that well trodden path of "and magic was no more, the world had changed, become less, and yet more, for the age of man was come!" or whatever.

I say it's a possibility because it was strongly implied in the books that various magical things (like wildfire production and the powers of the Red Priests) became stronger after the dragons were born. So I believe those things may also go out together.

As for an "inventive and original" ending, I think the HBO guys will do the best they can (which is hit or miss). I don't think Martin will give us an ending at all. It has nothing to do with his age or life expectancy. I think he choked on the fourth and (especially) the fifth book, lost the plot, and can't get it back. If he still had a real desire to finish, he wouldn't be messing around writing prequels. Sorry to say!

From the show they emply that they have 8,000 years of known if not recorded history (which is pretty absurd) and that as little as 300 years ago there were full-sized dragons. What then is the link between magic, white walkerss and dragons, and what is true now in the story that wasn't true during the last 8,000 years

JasonZavoda wrote:

Blackadder23 wrote:

Matthew wrote:Erm, no. It is lame because I would like to see something more inventive and original. I can see the appeal of conforming to a known workable ending, but it seems to me that it is boring to go down that well trodden path of "and magic was no more, the world had changed, become less, and yet more, for the age of man was come!" or whatever.

I say it's a possibility because it was strongly implied in the books that various magical things (like wildfire production and the powers of the Red Priests) became stronger after the dragons were born. So I believe those things may also go out together.

As for an "inventive and original" ending, I think the HBO guys will do the best they can (which is hit or miss). I don't think Martin will give us an ending at all. It has nothing to do with his age or life expectancy. I think he choked on the fourth and (especially) the fifth book, lost the plot, and can't get it back. If he still had a real desire to finish, he wouldn't be messing around writing prequels. Sorry to say!

From the show they emply that they have 8,000 years of known if not recorded history (which is pretty absurd) and that as little as 300 years ago there were full-sized dragons. What then is the link between magic, white walkerss and dragons, and what is true now in the story that wasn't true during the last 8,000 years

All I know is the books suggest a link between the dragons being born and magic becoming more powerful. This is particularly clear with wildfire becoming mysteriously easier to produce. Perhaps whenever there were more dragons in the past, there was also more magic. And whenever there were few or no dragons, there was less magic. I don't really know. If this link is real, the inhabitants of the world are apparently unaware of it.

It may have something to do with Valyria, the highly magical civilization that was the source of the Targaryens and their dragons.

Is it 8,000 years of history from the creation of the White Walkers?

It seems like the Targaryeans didn't come to Westeros until about a 1,000 years ago so the dragons were just over in Essos.

Either way, I agree, I don't think I would prefer a GRRM downer-ish ending where all the cool kids die because their plot armor fails. Leaving the Dragons and the White Walkers to duke it out while the Three Eyed Raven is left adrift on the seas to stay alive, unable to have too many visions because of no god trees.

Blackadder23 wrote: I say it's a possibility because it was strongly implied in the books that various magical things (like wildfire production and the powers of the Red Priests) became stronger after the dragons were born. So I believe those things may also go out together.

As I recall, the time line does not quite work out for the dragons being the cause, rather than a symptom, of the resurgence of magic; in particular, the reappearance of the White Walkers. The hatching of the dragon eggs is itself a magical event, but it is definitely strongly implied that a subset of the maesters have been working to suppress magic (and dragons) for a very long time. That said, it may well be that the hatching of the dragons caused the resurgence, but I think it will be a lot more interesting if it turns out there is some other cause than the Dragon Queen obtaining them by a turn of fortune and just "knowing" how to hatch them.

Blackadder23 wrote: As for an "inventive and original" ending, I think the HBO guys will do the best they can (which is hit or miss). I don't think Martin will give us an ending at all. It has nothing to do with his age or life expectancy. I think he choked on the fourth and (especially) the fifth book, lost the plot, and can't get it back. If he still had a real desire to finish, he wouldn't be messing around writing prequels. Sorry to say!

I think that the fifth book is much better than the fourth, and was a return to form, but I have to agree that I suspect that Martin is having considerable trouble coming up with a satisfactory course for the sixth and seventh books. He may have simply set the bar too high and lacks the ability to reach it. One thing the television series may do is help him figure out what works and what does not, but I am not holding my breath. Naturally, I still hold out hope that he will eventually finish the series, and will be very happy if he does.

gizmomathboy wrote: Either way, I agree, I don't think I would prefer a GRRM downer-ish ending where all the cool kids die because their plot armor fails. Leaving the Dragons and the White Walkers to duke it out while the Three Eyed Raven is left adrift on the seas to stay alive, unable to have too many visions because of no god trees.

I doubt that is where we are going, but I hope it is in keeping with the rest of the series.

I recently learned that HBO accidentally made episode 6 available for a time in Spain. Consequently, chunks of the episode are available on youtube (and undoubtedly elsewhere).

Yeah, you can get the whole episode; not that I will. I’m in this now for the shared experience, so, I’ll watch it when everyone else does.

Matthew wrote: I doubt that is where we are going, but I hope it is in keeping with the rest of the series.

I realize looking back at the series that the heart of my interest is Tyrion. He is the witty compelling character that brings the series to life for me and this season he has been relegated to a minor role with almost all of his witty and sardonic dialogue absent. I dearly hope this changes but so far season 7 is disappointing to me and I worry season 8 will be the same.

I feel for George R. R. Martin. Writing is not like stacking wood, where you can simply force yourself to get it stacked. He has said that he has days in which he spends the entire day writing, and at the end of the day he has not written a single sentence that he will keep. Martin could of course purposely write mediocre stuff in order to meet deadlines, but I do not think anyone would want that.

Here are the word counts of each of his five volumes:
A Game of Thrones: 292,727
A Clash of Kings: 318,903
A Storm of Swords: 414,604
A Feast for Crows: 295,032
A Dance with Dragons: 414,788

Martin has guessed that each of the last two volumes of the series will be roughly equal in length to A Dance with Dragons (which is the longest of the books thus far). I would guess that the final volume will be the most difficult to finish in the sense of not being able to any longer "put something off to the next book". He will have to work doubly hard to ensure that the ending is satisfying rather than "That's it? It took him 30 years and millions of words to get to...that? Good grief."

He has his work cut out for him.

I think his biggest mistake was letting a TV show get made before he had finished the series. The fact that the show has gotten past the point in the books' narrative must be a sorrow to Martin (not to mention that, barring a miracle, the show will finish before the 7th book [and perhaps even the 6th book] is published). I remember when the show first started Martin talking about his intention to finish writing the book series before the TV show ended. Alas.

I’ve said this before, but, finished or not, those books stand as an absolutely stunning marvel of worldbuilding. Just freakin’ great. I do hope he finishes them, but the fan theories out there are so awesome that it would be neat to see the unfinished series take on a life of its own — not to mention conducive to roleplaying.

JasonZavoda wrote:

Matthew wrote: I doubt that is where we are going, but I hope it is in keeping with the rest of the series.

I realize looking back at the series that the heart of my interest is Tyrion. He is the witty compelling character that brings the series to life for me and this season he has been relegated to a minor role with almost all of his witty and sardonic dialogue absent. I dearly hope this changes but so far season 7 is disappointing to me and I worry season 8 will be the same.

With the accelerated time line the showrunners are using I also don't feel we will get a GRRM kind of ending. I'm not sure how prominent the maesters are in the books but they are mostly used to advance the plot without really doing much else in it. Even Sam (who I kinda like) is really just a "hey, you can kill wights with dragon glass, yo", plot advancer without adding much to it.

Having magic leave the world would be a bad ending I think. I think to be a GRRM ending it would have neither Jon, Dany, Cersei, or Tyrion anywhere near the throne. I think it would be Baelish (as much as I want to see Arya knife him up slowly as she pulls off Sansa's face...wait that was a random dark through...damn).

Having Jon or Dany on the Iron Throne is just too...happily every after kind of ending.

Hmmm, maybe the dragons will turn Kings Landing into Valeria?