Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Geoffrey wrote:

rogatny wrote:Three episodes left for the season. Anyone want to make any predictions about where things will stand heading into season 8?

My guesses:

Episode 5: an expository, set-up episode

Episode 6: Arya will kill Littlefinger. The final battle for King's Landing will begin.

Episode 7: Jamie will kill Cersei to prevent her from blowing-up King's Landing (rather like he killed the Mad King). Jamie will die doing so. Daenerys will take the Iron Throne to general acclaim. The episode will end with the White Walkers breaching the Wall, thus setting-up the final season to be the war between the White Walkers and mankind. Go dragons!

I would say episode 5 was indeed an expository, set-up episode.

I am less confident than I was a week ago about my predictions for episodes 6 and 7. This talk of capturing a wight and bringing it back to King's Landing complicates matters. I'm still confident that Littlefinger will get killed this season, though.

I'm *so* ready for that dagger to find its way into Littlefinger's guts.

We've now seen John Snow's faculty with dragons (i.e., they don't burn/bite/eat him and he can "pet" them). Obviously, we've seen Daenerys with this kind of connection. We've also seen it with Tyrion, when he freed the chained up dragons. I still suspect that Tyrion may actually have been fathered by Aerys, not Tywin.

Geoffrey wrote:This talk of capturing a wight and bringing it back to King's Landing complicates matters.

I don't see that having any effect on Cersei. Heck, she's already seen something of the sort with her walking mountain.

Tangent: I think Tyrion missed a chance to make a "then I'd be the quarter-man" joke when Jamie told him he'd sworn to cut him in half.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:This talk of capturing a wight and bringing it back to King's Landing complicates matters.

I don't see that having any effect on Cersei. Heck, she's already seen something of the sort with her walking mountain.

Tangent: I think Tyrion missed a chance to make a "then I'd be the quarter-man" joke when Jamie told him he'd sworn to cut him in half.

I think Tyrion has either returned to his melancholy ways or sunk deeper in them so as not to be able to make that joke. I think Cersei and Jaime fucking up his battle plans has shaken Tyrion's confidence and swagger. He's a much weaker advisor now.

Yeah, Cersei has no fucks to give. She'll just say "I'll beat you and you can join them and I'll beat you both."

Jaime just might kill her, especially after their last conversation.

Not sure I agree with Sam's course of action but I understand it. Should have at least talked with the Arch Meister. More Valerian steel for the army of the north to use I guess.

Did everyone catch that Jon was revealed to be the legitimate king?

Random thoughts on the episode:

I don't believe Cersei is really pregnant. She knows Jaime needs something to fight for and she gave it to him. The Cersei-Jaime relationship is very different from in the books.

I'm begging the show to not make Sansa and Arya fall into Littlefinger's game. Or maybe have Bran step in and say something useful instead of enigmatic. Please show, let us see that these people have grown up from when they were little kids way back in season 1, six years ago.

Jon Snow as the legitimate Targaryan heir confirmed. Will it ever matter? Seems Bran or Howland Reed (never appeared on the show except in flashback) are the only ones who'll be able to put all the pieces together. Bran isn't talking for some bizarre reason and Howland Reed may never appear on the show.

The temporary cease fire between the queens is a nice twist, seeming to forestall the inevitable. And we might actually get a Dany-Cersei meeting and conversation.

Prediction: The wight that is captured is the dead form of one of the party going out to capture one. It could be the Hound and he might break loose and have that fight with the Mountain everyone has always wanted, but in undead form.

So Dany killed a general (and his son) who remained loyal to her father all the way through the Stark/Baratheon rebellion and was the only general to defeat Robert's forces in battle during the entire war. She did so in a way identical to how her father killed Rickard Stark (and his son), which is what started the whole rebellion in the first place. None of her advisers have the balls (sorry, Varys) to say anything about it. Jon Snow would have said something, but everyone similarly failed to mention to him that the queen he's been making goo goo eyes at burned his best friend's father and brother alive for failing to do the same thing she's been telling him to do for a few episodes (bend the knee).

It's like the whole Mereen side-trek where she was supposed to be learning how to become a queen never happened. She's not remembering that she became the queen by serving and protecting the weak. Nope. For the entire season she's just been, "They're my kingdoms and I want them now?" Even lame-ass show-Stannis figured out that the best way to become king is to start acting like one. I can't figure out if this is bad writing or if the Dany as villain thing is really happening.

It’s funny, my wife said about Randyll Tarly, “Good. He was an asshole.” I thought he was a complicated character who was ultimately sympathetic. I think the show is trying to remember how GRRM straddled all those gray areas, and hoping people have that conversation about whether Dany is really bad or good. Considering they are setting up Jon as the true heir, presumably they want the audience to root for him more than Dany (but still not really dislike Dany).

The thing that really eats at me as completely non-GRRMish is all the undo buttons being pushed. Jaime and Cersei are back together. The Stark kids are back together. Jorah was sick and gone but now he’s better and back. Beric and Jon have died but now they’re completely fine. Oh hey, there’s Gendry, cool. Thoros is a drunkard again (??). The Maesters all being dumb, that didn’t sit well with me. And this plot to capture a wight, I can’t put my finger on it, but it feels completely wrong.

And I had to laugh at the “Seven Samurai” group of PCs randomly put together with minimal justification to go beyond the Wall — Jon, Tormund, Beric, Thoros, Sandor, Gendry, and Jorah.

Falconer wrote:And this plot to capture a wight, I can’t put my finger on it, but it feels completely wrong.

Part of the problem for the book readers is that Jeor Mormont tried something very similar and failed to attract any notice when (I believe it was) Alistair Thorne presented a "living" dismembered hand to the King Joffrey's court. Book Tyrion was the acting Hand at the time and would have known that, but it obviously never happened for show Tyrion.

So we can be pretty sure that the whole "capture a wight and show it to Cersei" plan didn't come from Martin except to the extent that it was inspired by Jeor Mormont's earlier effort in the book.

Falconer wrote: Did everyone catch that Jon was revealed to be the legitimate king?

How do you mean?

rogatny wrote: I don't believe Cersei is really pregnant. She knows Jaime needs something to fight for and she gave it to him. The Cersei-Jaime relationship is very different from in the books.

I agree. It does not accord with the Witch's prophecy either way.

rogatny wrote: Jon Snow as the legitimate Targaryan heir confirmed. Will it ever matter? Seems Bran or Howland Reed (never appeared on the show except in flashback) are the only ones who'll be able to put all the pieces together. Bran isn't talking for some bizarre reason and Howland Reed may never appear on the show.

Bran said he needs to talk to Jon, presumably about this.

rogatny wrote: Prediction: The wight that is captured is the dead form of one of the party going out to capture one.

Seems likely.

rogatny wrote: So Dany killed a general (and his son) who remained loyal to her father all the way through the Stark/Baratheon rebellion and was the only general to defeat Robert's forces in battle during the entire war. She did so in a way identical to how her father killed Rickard Stark (and his son), which is what started the whole rebellion in the first place. None of her advisers have the balls (sorry, Varys) to say anything about it. Jon Snow would have said something, but everyone similarly failed to mention to him that the queen he's been making goo goo eyes at burned his best friend's father and brother alive for failing to do the same thing she's been telling him to do for a few episodes (bend the knee).

Getting rid of Sam's obstacles to lordship seems the likely culprit. None of it made sense narratively.

Falconer wrote: The thing that really eats at me as completely non-GRRMish is all the undo buttons being pushed. Jaime and Cersei are back together. The Stark kids are back together. Jorah was sick and gone but now he’s better and back. Beric and Jon have died but now they’re completely fine. Oh hey, there’s Gendry, cool. Thoros is a drunkard again (??). The Maesters all being dumb, that didn’t sit well with me. And this plot to capture a wight, I can’t put my finger on it, but it feels completely wrong.

Well, it is all a bit of a red herring really. The relentless grim violence, deaths of beloved characters, redemption of evil characters, unsatisfying deaths of villains, all masks the basic journey of invincible bastard Jon Snow (who actually is the real heir to the Seven Kingdoms) and his magical wolf from boy to hero-king. Hopefully there is more to it than that, but I am not holding my breath.

Falconer wrote: And I had to laugh at the “Seven Samurai” group of PCs randomly put together with minimal justification to go beyond the Wall — Jon, Tormund, Beric, Thoros, Sandor, Gendry, and Jorah.

Yeah, that was funny, and fun at the same time. What happened to all the other brotherhood men, though? Not even the archer?

Falconer wrote:Did everyone catch that Jon was revealed to be the legitimate king?

Jon is the grandson of the king, but Daenerys is the king's daughter. Wouldn't that give her precedence over Jon, or are they strictly patriarchal? I don't recall it being mentioned in the show.

TRP wrote: Jon is the grandson of the king, but Daenerys is the king's daughter. Wouldn't that give her precedence over Jon, or are they strictly patriarchal? I don't recall it being mentioned in the show.

Eldest son, through eldest son. The Dragon Queen is the younger sister of his father. Now that I think about it, Flaconer must be referring to the mention of the annulment of the marriage that Sam's wildling girl was trying to tell him about. I thought we already knew that, but maybe it was just in the books or something.

Not a prediction, but a possibility that occurred to me:

Cersei as the (unwitting) hero of the whole saga.

Imagine Cersei surviving season 7 and still on the Iron Throne. They bring the wight back, and everyone is appalled at it. Everyone agrees to work together to defeat the wights, but Cersei has plots within plots and plans for everyone else to get killed by the White Walkers.

Season 8 shows the battle against the White Walkers, and the White Walkers (ahem) walk all over everyone. The three dragons are slain (and perhaps made into zombie dragons). The vast White Walker army marches towards King's Landing.

Meanwhile, the populace of King's Landing is restive, becoming ever more vocal about preferring Daenerys over Cersei. Cersei feels trapped and goes into the deep dungeons to blow-up all of King's Landing with that fire.

As Cersei pots about and mutters to herself, the White Walkers storm King's Landing and kill everyone within. The only living thing there is Cersei, far below, and she hasn't a clue. Intending to kill all the people of King's Landing, she ignites the fire while screaming, "Burn them all!" And thereby saves the day, destroying the entire White Walker army.

The series ends with Bran selectively and enigmatically revealing Cersei's action but not her motive. Daenerys takes the Iron Throne (metaphorically, since the actual chair has been destroyed) to rule over a decimated Westeros, and Cersei is honored as a hero.

There's your bittersweet happy ending.

That would be very boring and meaningless.

Matthew wrote:That would be very boring and meaningless.

I agree.

Yes, I was referring to the revelation that Rhaegar Targaryen had his marriage to Elia Martell annulled, and married Lyanna Stark, thus making his trueborn (not bastard) son, Jon Targaryen, his legitimate heir.