H. P. Lovecraft & racism

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austinjimm
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H. P. Lovecraft & racism

Post by austinjimm »

Discussion split off from the ‘What are you reading?’ thread. —Moderator
Matthew wrote:Naturally, I will not be recommending them to anybody in the future, though. Definitely puts Lovecraft's failings into perspective.
Can anyone legitimately source the racism accusations against Lovecraft?
I tried.
They lead back to a poem published in a 1980's fanzine.
In the fanzine Lovecraft is credited as the author, but I can find no prior source for the offending poem in any authoritative Lovecraft material.
I think the Lovecraft racist poem is a fraud, but I'd be interested to see evidence to the contrary.

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Re: What are you reading?

Post by Kellri »

austinjimm wrote:Can anyone legitimately source the racism accusations against Lovecraft?
I tried.
They lead back to a poem published in a 1980's fanzine.
In the fanzine Lovecraft is credited as the author, but I can find no prior source for the offending poem in any authoritative Lovecraft material.
I think the Lovecraft racist poem is a fraud, but I'd be interested to see evidence to the contrary.
You obviously didn't look too closely. Several (as in more than one) of his short stories (and a whole lot of his private letters) make some very unfavourable comparisons between ethnic minorities and animals, and point out the general nature of such minorites to be degraded or sub-human.

It's also been suggested that Lovecraft was approached by none other than Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg who wanted him to write 'the American Mein Kampf' - it's debateable whether or not he wrote it or not, but it was never published in any case and there is no extant manuscript that I know of. Still, in my experience one doesn't typically get approached to write a racist manifesto unless you are well known by friends and acquaintances to hold some very racist beliefs.

Now, I happen to like Lovecraft's fiction, but I also believe it is being more than generous to just disregard or deny those personal beliefs which, even at the time, were considered flagrantly rascist. We're not talking about some confused 'I'm being picked on by reverse racists' or some shit, either. We're talking about a more direct 'We'd be better off shipping all the blacks, Jews, Italians, Slavs, Mexicans, etc. right back to where they came from' and 'Nazi Germany and the Klu Klux Klan make some good points' kind of thing.

If you want some more concrete examples, take a look at the stories 'The Outsider', 'The Street', 'Medusa's Coil' or 'The Horror at Red Hook'. I suppose one could choose to downplay it, or excuse it, but it's not one single questionable poem.
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Re: What are you reading?

Post by austinjimm »

Kellri wrote:If you want some more concrete examples, take a look at the stories 'The Outsider', 'The Street', 'Medusa's Coil' or 'The Horror at Red Hook'. I suppose one could choose to downplay it, or excuse it, but it's not one single questionable poem.
That may be the case. I'll look at some of the stories you mention. It's been literally decades since I read those. Your other examples, like the supposed "American Mein Kampf" are more than sketchy, IMO. The poem in question, however, is the prime piece that people making this case point to. I think it's a fraud, and you haven't made a case that it's not.


EDIT: Regarding the poem, the earliest publication of it that I can find is a 1984 fan publication called "Saturnalia and Other Poems," edited by S.T. Joshi. The fact that no earlier record of it seems to exist is suspicious, and the poem itself (ignoring the offensive subject matter) doesn't read like Lovecraft's other poetry to me. So like I said, I think it's a fraud, but if there are any earlier sources, I'd be interested to know of them.

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Re: What are you reading?

Post by Kellri »

austinjimm wrote:Regarding the poem, the earliest publication of it that I can find is a 1984 fan publication called "Saturnalia and Other Poems," edited by S.T. Joshi.
You know who S.T. Joshi is right? He's pretty universally considered to be THE Lovecraft scholar and the author of the definitive biography and annotated letters. Are you suggesting that because you just don't like that poem and it was unpublished prior to 1984 that it's probably a fake, and that Joshi was complicit (or at least really intellectually sloppy) in allowing it to be published?

Oh, yeah...for another angle, you might consider that S.T. Joshi was the guy who registered the strongest objection to replacing the trophy given out at the World Fantasy Awards (a bust of Lovecraft) - due to a general outcry over Lovecraft's racism. Tellingly, he didn't register his objection by denying Lovecraft was a racist - because that point is not in question.

You might consider that 'the people making the case' as you say, could be what I like to call 'historical revisionist cunts'.
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Re: What are you reading?

Post by grodog »

Which HPL poem are you talking about as a possible fraud, Jimm?

I'll second Scot's take on HPL's racism: it's strongly present, even in some of his most-important stories like "The Call of Cthulhu" and "The Shadow Over Innsmouth." And Joshi is the definitive HPL scholar---had I been accepted to Brown for grad school in the early 1990s, I would likely have worked with Joshi on HPL textual scholarship somewhere along the way (that was my hope at the time, at least ;) ).
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Re: What are you reading?

Post by austinjimm »

Get a grip Kellri. In L. Sprague De Camp's 1975 Lovecraft: A Biography there appears to be a footnote on page 95 that relates to "the poem," but I can't get Google Snippets to show me that portion of the page. You wouldn't happen to have a copy, would you?

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Re: What are you reading?

Post by austinjimm »

grodog wrote:Which HPL poem are you talking about as a possible fraud, Jimm?
There is a publication history of the poem here:

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?981607

Although, I just discovered that it is also printed in L.S. De Camp's 1975 biography of Lovecraft.

Interestingly, Mr. Joshi appears to have left the poem out of "The Ancient Track," so maybe he decided the poem's origins were spurious as well. See here:

http://goo.gl/VbG0Od

EDIT: If the above tiny URL doesn't work, try this one: https://tinyurl.com/zszo38k .

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Re: What are you reading?

Post by Kellri »

I would be very skeptical of that de Camp biography. He makes some very dubious psycho-historical claims - not to mention errors. It's been superceded by (you guessed it) S.T. Joshi's biography.

I would also refer you to Lovecraft's letters if you want some out and out racism - and there is a lot. Not subtle, not some sketchy terminology, just flat out stomach-turning racism. He was so prolific and up-front about it that even his friends were often turned off by it. Here's a few sample quotes:
. . Garish daylight shewed only squalor and alienage and the noxious elephantiasis of climbing, spreading stone where the moon had hinted of loveliness and elder magic; and the throngs of people that seethed through the flume-like streets were squat, swarthy strangers with hardened faces and narrow eyes, shrewd strangers without dreams and without kinship to the scenes about them, who could never mean aught to a blue-eyed man of the old folk, with the love of fair green lanes and white New England village steeples in his heart.
You may better understand my repulsion to the Jew when I tell you that until I was fourteen years old I do not believe I ever spoke to one or saw one knowingly
The only non-Saxons were niggers whose parents work for our families or cart our ashes, and who consequently know their place
The more I study the question, the more firmly I am convinced that the one supreme race is the Teuton
I’ll be shot if three out of every four persons – nay, full nine out of every ten – weren’t flabby, pungent, grinning, chattering niggers! Help!
The organic things inhabiting that awful cesspool could not by any stretch of the imagination be call’d human. They were monstrous and nebulous adumbrations of the pithecanthropoid and amoebal; vaguely moulded from some stinking viscous slime of the earth’s corruption, and slithering and oozing in and on the filthy streets or in and out of windows and doorways in a fashion suggestive of nothing but infesting worms or deep-sea unnamabilities. They — or the degenerate gelatinous fermentation of which they were composed — seem’d to ooze, seep and trickle thro’ the gaping cracks in the horrible houses … and I thought of some avenue of Cyclopean and unwholesome vats, crammed to the vomiting point with gangrenous vileness, and about to burst and inundate the world in one leprous cataclysm of semi-fluid rottenness. From hat nightmare of perverse infection I could not carry away the memory of any living face. The individually grotesque was lost in the collectively devastating; which left on the eye only the
broad, phantasmal lineaments of the morbid soul of disintegration and decay … a yellow leering mask with sour, sticky, acid ichors oozing at eyes, ears, nose, and mouth, and abnormally bubbling from monstrous and unbelievable sores at every point …
That last quote by the way is not from a short story. It's from a letter to Frank Belknap Long describing his ethnic neighborhood in NYC.
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Re: What are you reading?

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Kellri wrote:... That last quote by the way is not from a short story. It's from a letter to Frank Belknap Long describing his ethnic neighborhood in NYC.
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Re: What are you reading?

Post by austinjimm »

Kellri wrote:I would also refer you to Lovecraft's letters
It looks like there are a few different collections of his letters. Are those quotes from one in particular?

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Re: What are you reading?

Post by Kellri »

Jimm...it's almost midnight here on Valentines Day in Vietnam so I'm not currently prepared at the moment to issue a complete correspondence bibliography of an author who is widely credited with being the most prolific writer of personal correspondance in American history. Rest assured, I will attempt to do it tomorrow. - Love, Kellri.
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Re: What are you reading?

Post by austinjimm »

Kellri wrote:Jimm...it's almost midnight here on Valentines Day in Vietnam so I'm not currently prepared at the moment to issue a complete correspondence bibliography of an author who is widely credited with being the most prolific writer of personal correspondance in American history. Rest assured, I will attempt to do it tomorrow. - Love, Kellri.
So, in other words, you yanked those quotes off of some Website.
I'm not saying they're not accurate, but... :roll:

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Re: What are you reading?

Post by rogatny »

Let's remember the context of this subject: H P Lovecraft - racist who wrote and probably thought some pretty icky things, no evidence that he ever actually hurt anybody, basically a more literate version of my grandfather VS. Marion Zimmer Bradley - child abuser and aider and abetter of a serial rapist whose passages describing various pagan customs in her works now take on completely different meaning in the new revealed context.

In the former case I think you can weigh the good with the bad and come away with a flawed human being whose contributions to literature are undeniable and worth studying. In the latter case, you have an utter monster.
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Re: What are you reading?

Post by Falconer »

austinjimm wrote:So, in other words, you yanked those quotes off of some Website.
I'm not saying they're not accurate, but... :roll:
Dude, this is a website!
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Re: What are you reading?

Post by EOTB »

Let's remember the context of this subject: H P Lovecraft - racist who wrote and probably thought some pretty icky things, no evidence that he ever actually hurt anybody, basically a more literate version of my grandfather VS. Marion Zimmer Bradley - child abuser and aider and abetter of a serial rapist whose passages describing various pagan customs in her works now take on completely different meaning in the new revealed context.

In the former case I think you can weigh the good with the bad and come away with a flawed human being whose contributions to literature are undeniable and worth studying. In the latter case, you have an utter monster.
Agreed. And besides, how is anyone realistically going to discuss this on a forum board without pulling stuff off a website?
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