Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Yes, in the books Loras is the youngest Tyrell brother. GRRM has frequently and uncharacteristically complained about the two older brothers getting cut from the show, and how much that messes up his story. Presumably he has big plans for them in the books.

But the show seems content to have illegitimate rulers all over the place: Cersei on the Iron Throne, Jon in the North, Olenna in the Reach, Ellaria in Dorne. The more women the better, except in the one place where a woman is the actual heir apparent (Bran being presumed dead). I guess they feel everything has fallen apart enough to the point where prescription is the only relevant rule of succession.

Falconer wrote:Yes, in the books Loras is the youngest Tyrell brother. GRRM has frequently and uncharacteristically complained about the two older brothers getting cut from the show, and how much that messes up his story.

Wah wah wah
Martin had a 5 book headstart on the TV series. Book 5 was published the same year the series debuted. He couldn't even finish one book in 5 years. That's just too bad too sad what he doesn't like about the series.

I read a review that called Jon the Leroy Jenkins of Westeros. That's funny.

TRP wrote:
I read a review that called Jon the Leroy Jenkins of Westeros. That's funny.

Someone dubbed the Leroy Jenkins audio over the battle of bastards scene. It was inevitable.

One of the things that bugs me in the show is the lack of telling everyone they run into (Jon and Sam) that Valyrian steel and dragon glass fuck up white walkers.

While talking with Francisca about the episode he came up with a grand, crazy idea: The Iron Throne is made of valyrian steel. However, a lot of hay is made that there are only like 5 swords of Valyrian steel know to be in existence.

Because otherwise I just see the Night King rolling as far south as Winter will let him (after somehow breaking the magic of The Wall).

Yeah, there are both Dorne (beige/red) and Tyrell (green/gold) sails among the ships in the fleet at the end. Not to mention Greyjoy and Targaryen...

Cersei is going to be wearing her mourning dress for awhile, I imagine.

The TV show has no problem letting moments, days, weeks, or months pass in a simple scene change.

I bet the Night King's brand on Bran's arm is going to play a role in getting the undead through The Wall. I think it was dumb as hell that the Three-Eyed Raven didn't teach the whole never-let-the-white-walkers-touch-you-while-spirit-traveling as his very first lesson. Priorities always seem to elude these cryptic mentors in every drama.

And maybe Sam and Jon are telling people about Valyrian steel/obsidian, but everyone doesn't believe in White Walkers anyway, so they just aren't repeating these same conversations over and over because the audience shouldn't need that repetition. They do that a lot too. Sanza knew Ramsey didn't feed his dogs even though she left the negotiation before he said this. One must assume someone mentioned it to her.

Having read the first two books, I'm of the opposite opinion. I enjoy the HBO series far more than the books. After the series is done, maybe I'll read'em all. Well, I definitely will if I play in another rpg. That caused me to start in the first place.

rogatny wrote: I thought the Varys teleportation was fairly hilarious, too, but just figured they were taking some poetic license because they wanted all of Team Dany on a boat in the final shot of the season.

That was my impression as well.

There is a lot more complicated shit going on the books, but the TV series is basically showing it to be smoke and mirrors at this point, which a careful reader would have expected anyway. If they just fight and kill each other, make an alliance and then blow up the Night King it is going to be fucking boring, so I hope there is some twist somewhere that gives events greater gravitas, but I am having a hard time imagining what it might be. The rapid pace at which plot lines are being resolved is definitely contrary to the slowly unfolding story that Martin has been so good at.

As far this episode goes, I thought it was satisfactory, if very predictable. The only thing that I would not have guessed was Arya's slaughter of the Freys, but that was obvious as soon as the scene started and Lord Frey said "You're not one of mine". It was the best we could have hoped for by mid season, Boltons and Freys defeated and Daenerys afloat, along with certainty of Jon Snow's true heritage. However, I remain worried that the final denouement is not going to live up to expectations. Who is the third head of the dragon? Looks increasingly likely to be Jamie, I think.

Matthew wrote:If they just fight and kill each other, make an alliance and then blow up the Night King it is going to be fucking boring, so I hope there is some twist somewhere that gives events greater gravitas, but I am having a hard time imagining what it might be.

It certainly seems set up for Dany to storm up from the South, wipe out the Lannisters, and then team up with the Starks and win the final battle against the Night King. Euron Greyjoy and Littlefinger seem like the only wild cards, but I have a hard time seeing either one being able to do much, unless if in the latter case Sansa is amazingly stupid. I don't see how they can stretch that into 13 more episodes without being amazingly boring or having some implausibly contrived conflicts, (why would the Starks and Dany come into conflict, for example) unless there's more going on than what it seems.

Exactly. I have often worried that this is what is taking Martin so long, his endgame is incomplete. It is not the next book that is difficult to write, but the one after, and he is delaying in the hope that he can think of something fantastic that will make the audience think "Now that was worth the wait".

Euron will meet Dany in the sea for a grand naval battle. They’ll kill him off.

Matthew wrote:Who is the third head of the dragon? Looks increasingly likely to be Jamie, I think.

What about Tyrion’s monologue to Viserion and Rhaegal, about how he dreamed of dragons as a child, and all that? I’m not sure, though, that ASOIAF could truly end up being such a Harry Potterish story (summarized online as “fan favorite misunderstood and oppressed underdog spurned by his ‘father’s’ hatred of him actually turns out to be a magical dragon rider that rides back to Westeros and redemption”).

The books drop several hints that the Mad King Aerys lusted after Tywin’s wife, and possibly exercised the droit du seigneur with her to father either Jaime+Cersei or Tyrion. I think it’s all of the above, personally, especially after seeing Mad Queen Cersei in the last episode. (Did you see the horror in the Kingslayer’s face?)

Cersei is the one I would least like to see as the third dragonrider, but, who knows? If Euron dies, that leaves Dany, Cersei, and Jon as the three monarchs. It would be nice and neat.

Matthew wrote:Who is the third head of the dragon? Looks increasingly likely to be Jamie, I think.

Or Tyrion. He's already made nice with a pair of the dragons. Odd that they didn't just eat him, no?

Or they could twist it up and go with Danaerys, Sanasa, and Brienne for the ultimate throw down of the patriarchy.

I would not rule out Tyrion, but there are definitely more parallels with Jamie and Cersei [e.g. incest, one twin mad, the other not, silver blond hair, as described in the books, and of course Jamie's redemption arc]. Right now, the most interesting plot point for me is annoyingly absent from the television series, and that is the deliberate suppression of magic by the maesters.

You have to wonder if Sam will save the day by doing whatever he needs to do to unsuppress magic, OR, whether he will come around to their way of thinking, and at the end sorrowfully bring about the elimination of the dragons and the Targaryens (incl. his bestie Jon) and magic once and for all. I would guess the latter.

Interesting. My friend guesses that Bran is not only Bran the Builder, but is also the reason the Mad King hears voices. So his madness may not be hereditary. But I do like the Targaryen relation theory posited by Falconer. That might explain why Tywin was taking the opportunity to clean house: to make his children the only plausible successors. Regardless, they do mention that the Targaryens inbreed. Definitely a strong theory for the book storyline, especially since you posted that old Martin letter mentioning Jamie's ascension to the throne.

I had a revelation whilst on the train on the way home from work today. I was thinking about how Cersei would die and it occurred to me the most dramatic person to kill her would be Jamie, and that was when I realised what is going to happen next. Jon Snow and Daenerys are going to simultaneously lay siege to Kings Landing, and in a repeat of earlier events Cersei and her Maester are going to decide to destroy the city rather than surrender. Jamie is going to kill them both, completing his redemption, and ascend the Iron Throne. Then we are going to have three monarchs in place, who are also the three heads of the dragon, and who will make common cause against the white walkers.

Falconer wrote: You have to wonder if Sam will save the day by doing whatever he needs to do to unsuppress magic, OR, whether he will come around to their way of thinking, and at the end sorrowfully bring about the elimination of the dragons and the Targaryens (incl. his bestie Jon) and magic once and for all. I would guess the latter.

Indeed. Bran, the Red Priests, and the Maesters are where the larger story lies. I am thinking the dragons may well be barred from crossing the wall, and so may be the ones to breach it in a war to end the war.

josh wrote:Interesting. My friend guesses that Bran … is also the reason the Mad King hears voices.

I’m sure, and the Mad King keeps repeating “burn them all” because it’s his “hold the door” — he means burn the wights. They basically showed this in one scene of Bran having a vision cutting back and forth between wights and the Mad King.