Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Matthew wrote:Back in the days of D20/3E when I was not tuned into "old school", the sort of cover that really blew me away was the Frazetta on the front of the Wilderlands of High Fantasy

I like the Frazetta piece, but I don't like that faux-book border around it, with the Caldewell-looking gems and all.

I do not love the design choices either, but the point is really the art used. Most old school stuff, for whatever reason, goes with less "realism" (for want of a better word) it seems to me.

AxeMental wrote: ...
Of the over a dozen 1E players I've met in the "real world" in the past few years (by chance mostly), none of them, when I asked, have heard of DF, K&K or OSRIC (and they claim to go online, don't know how they miss it). If we could ever figure out how to reach these folks (they've gotta number in the thousands, maybe more), I think the hobby could be grown in a healthy way. The problem is no one that plays 1E really telegraphs it, and perhaps never thought to order modules online (or are just happy with home brewed stuff).
Any game market that has three core books that are indestructible requiring nothing else but a pen and paper are going is going to be hard to convince.

I think the problem with DF, K&KA and other sites is that only DMs are invested enough to really search them out. Similarly, only DMs are likely to buy/download product. Publishers will never successfully reach out to OSR players...at least not through websites.

EDIT: The list of free modules that I try to keep updated on DF is fairly extensive (188) and there are some gems in there. Much of it is drek and can be readily ignored, but even those have tiny nuggets of gold inside. I'd never criticize something that a person put up for free so I don't comment on their quality, but commercial products- hell, we all have a responsibility to point out the stuff that is shit, and why it is shit.

Matthew wrote:I do not love the design choices either, but the point is really the art used. Most old school stuff, for whatever reason, goes with less "realism" (for want of a better word) it seems to me.

I know what you mean, and I agree. There seems to be more cartoon or comic-style or even more abstract art in the OSR world (probably following in the tradition of Dee and Holloway and even Otus, to some degree). While there's nothing wrong with that, I'd like to see more stuff in the traditions of Trampier or Frazetta or Angus McBride. I think McBride's work for Osprey and for I.C.E. was exceptional.

Some of the best "OSR" art that I've seen is the black and white stuff for Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea (Ian Baggley's illustrations).

PJ wrote:Some of the best "OSR" art that I've seen is the black and white stuff for Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea (Ian Baggley's illustrations).

So true. Ian's preferred medium so far with his work for AS&SoH has been charcoal. How often do you see that?

- Wheggi

Wheggi wrote: I guess I should come clean and admit that I did have a small adventure of mine published in a magazine many years ago. Originally part of a megadungeon level, I had modified it to be a stand alone. I wouldn't put that adventure out today - too railroad-y, to linear and embarrassingly influenced by an M. Night Shyamalan-style twist - but at the time it was pretty well-received and it won me some cool Otherworld Miniatures bugbears, so I really can't knock it.

Don't be shy, Wheggi! I like Blocks of Quox from FO! #6 and I'd recommend it.

It's funny how you bring up the linear dungeon thing. This might not be a popular take, but I think it has been turned into another example of stifling conformity. Yeah, I generally agree with the advantages of non-linear design v. linear design. But, it seems to me it has been taken a bit too far with people citing melan's rather insightful thread like dogma. Now, it's like no dungeon, no tomb, no anything can be roughly linear, ever! The reviewer mentioned earlier, for example, just basically makes a snap statement in his reviews with respect to the maps: non-linear = good, linear = bad. A quality review needs to go deeper. Making a ton of decisions to turn right, left, or going forward doesn't always provide for a night full of fun interesting choices. Conversely, a well-designed dungeon that provides a ton of meaningful choices in overcoming a set of roughly linear challenges can be great. It makes no sense to me. Effective linear design can offer decision points. Why does everyone think turning right or left always needs to be the most fundamental decision point in every dungeon produced from now until forever?

I'll go back to Blocks of Quox. Personally, if I was playing, and the passage was blocked, I'd find it more interesting to not only figure out how to proceed, but how to manage the party order, etc. in proceeding in this unconventional fashion [trying not to include any spoilers here]. Of course, if I remember correctly this same reviewer missed this flavor when he reviewed it. [Btw, I changed up the backstory a bit and my PCs have a treasure map they've been sitting on that leads to this module. Note the method of insertion in my game makes it not really railroady at all. I hope I run it at some point. I even considered using it at my local con].

robertsconley wrote:
The OSR hobby has grown to the point where both the old and new are supported in equal measure. It show no sign of stopped either.

My take is that nostagia is a factor in a large segment of the OSR. The number of gamers who have their start in the fad era ensures this. There are two concurrent developments since OSRIC hit the internet in 2007. One is older gamers reconnecting to the games and hobby of classic D&D. The other is a new audience that push classic D&D into new directions. Both have exploded in diversity and numbers.

.

This is a really good post by Rob, but I just pulled out this one section. The OSR has risen to the point where entire conventions like Garycon and NTRPG con are based around the genre. Not to mention some of the products released that are as good, or better, than anything released by TSR 1979-1989...including Barrowmaze, John Stater's Nod, Conley's Points of Light, nearly anything by Matt Finch, etc.

Back to what you said Wheggi about the OSR mostly being a regurgitation...if this was true, then a convention like NTRPG con would have endless sessions devoted to G1-3, L1 Bone Hill, tournaments run rote from S1, Frank running T1-4 for the 100th time, etc etc. Instead, there has been exactly ONE TRADITIONAL TSR MODULE run in the five years of the convention.....and that is my annual running of B1 In Search of the Unknown for the last three years (which , BTW, I very liberally make my own by having the players pick which of five different scenarios/backgrounds/villains they want at the beginning of the session, having re-written the entire adventure but keeping the map as is). TacoJon has run a scenario from the JG Book of Treasure Maps in Year One. That's really pretty much it. Instead we have OD&D, Finch and Webb running Mythrus Tower sessions using Labyrinth Lord, "new' Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha run by Jim Ward and Steve Winter, Austin Jimm running subverisive stuff like his Outdoor Survival/OD&D/World of Eris, Grodog running his own Castle Greyhawk creations, the frankly fucking weird shit Rob Kuntz runs every year, etc etc etc. Instead of endless repetition we have variations on the theme, some radically different in design and execution, the only reminder of the past being the rules systems used. I just dont' see the stagnation there except in a few select cases where a publisher or writer is deliberately trying to ape a style just to sell something and has no plans to actually put out a good product.

And having said that, there is plenty of stuff out there (Guy Fullerton's two releases, or Pat's ASE, for example) that copy the style but are wildly original and interesting in ways that couldn't be done 30 years ago. Whether or not the OSR has "failed" or "succeeded" (and I think the overwhelming evidence is that it's succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams), the format is not the most important thing...the small mix of collectors that will buy almost anything that imitates the style from 30 years ago is actually a pretty small group,and most old schoolers simply won't buy crap, no matter what it's wrapped up in. That being said, I'm probably in a minority here because a lot of the "classic" TSR stuff I really don't like very much, and I think it's actually being done BETTER by some of the guys publishing today. Example Statler's hex crawls in NOD are at least twice as good as any of the Judges Guild hex crawls published in the "Wilderness" series that are considered by some the height of that genre, not even a contest there, and if he jumped back in a time machine to 1979 and put this stuff out then he'd be considered a genius in the mold of Jaquays or similar designers.

It all comes back to the old adage of not judging a book by it's cover, either for weal or woe. A few recent items that slavishly devote themselves to old style adventures in style and tone shouldn't speak for the industry as a whole.

Mike B.

Hey, Wheggi, here you go:

Check out Aos' stuff about fifteen posts down...

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 7&start=60

Landifarne wrote:Hey, Wheggi, here you go:

Check out Aos' stuff about fifteen posts down...

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 7&start=60

Landifarne, I'm sorry but am I missing something?

- Wheggi

The map doesn't resemble something TSR would have done, I think is Landifarne's point. But I think this thread isn't about content so much as about layout and design.

And more specifically, gaming material being published. Those maps and piece of art created by Aos look to be something he is doing with his kids.

- wheggi

The point being that people out there are creating things radically different from TSR's former style, and that they're disseminating it on the internet for free. Aos' maps do not a playable module or supplement make, but if you scrub away the colorizing and hexes you get some artwork and ideas that are more interesting than 90% of the commercial stuff that has come out since Stuart pblished OSRIC. Same with Dyson's free stuff, or this guy's little effort: http://qilong.altervista.org/shrine-of- ... on-depths/

Your thread went from lamenting that publishers are slaves to the 80's cover style to lamenting about the YDISiness of their products overall (or maybe I'm wrong, I'll have to go back and skim over what was said once more). If the thread did go in that direction, then I'd say it's not worth buying the vast majority of commercial offerings- they are YDIS.

But, people in this forum are not going to point those lemons out. Glass walls, and all

This thread got me thinking about other ways we could design RPG books. I came up with a relatively minimalist-looking one here.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:This thread got me thinking about other ways we could design RPG books. I came up with a relatively minimalist-looking one here.

I was thinking along similar lines, Stuart (btw, love that lorem ipsum'd the title). There are many different options that may be explored that could visually set publishers apart from the pack AND not offend the sensibilities of their target audience.

- Wheggi

I'm not sure palatino was a good font choice on my part though.