The Importance of the "TSR Style" in Retro-Clone Publishing

[robertsconley]

It's starting to become uncomfortably clear that is exactly what "the OSR" is all about.

It is about the playing, promoting or publishing for classic D&D. Nothing more nothing less. It is also built on the a foundation of open gaming, internet and print on demand which means there are no gatekeepers. Finally it has grown beyond the point of any one person to keep track of it all.

RPGNow has over 933 products in the OSR category. The list of Horde and Hoards has 715 as of May 2012 and that is just the products that focus on "gygaxian" D&D.

You'd think, but unfortunately no.

Stars without Number, Blood and Treasure, Mutant Future, DCC RPG, are you trying to tell me you reviewed the majority of offerings on Hordes and Hoards and RPGNow? I been following and writing about the OSR for years and I doubt I am aware of 1/3 of the material that is out there.

In no way does this expand the hobby, either within the already established fan community or beyond its borders.

The evidence suggest otherwise. As of Jan 2014, the classic mechanics and associated adventures and supplements have been sliced, and diced in just about every way imaginable. And just you think it is done somebody else comes up with something new.

But these are exceptions, and the reality is that if you want to write to sell you are going to have to make believe that you are TSR's layout guy circa 1982 so that the collectors can make-believe they are buying a new vanilla TSR module.

The OSR hobby has grown to the point where both the old and new are supported in equal measure. It show no sign of stopped either.

My take is that nostagia is a factor in a large segment of the OSR. The number of gamers who have their start in the fad era ensures this. There are two concurrent developments since OSRIC hit the internet in 2007. One is older gamers reconnecting to the games and hobby of classic D&D. The other is a new audience that push classic D&D into new directions. Both have exploded in diversity and numbers.

While Basic Fantasy was released first, OSRIC is what first made the big noise. And because it wasn't blown out of the water by Hasbro Legal the gates opened and flood hasn't ceased since then.

And the combination of OSRIC being built on the open game license, the attitudes of preexisting classic D&D community, and the technology of the Interest/Print on Demand what grips the OSR is a Do it yourself attitude.

If you see a change the only way to make it happen is for you to show how the rest of use are doing it wrong.

[PatW]

I've noticed that publishers consistently try to emulate the look of the products TSR published in its heyday. Most do this by mimicking the layout of the module covers with the yellow band in the upper left corner

Nostalgia! When I was a kid, I thought working for TSR and writing modules would be the coolest thing ever. Plus, I get warm fuzzy reminiscences from the look'n'feel of the old modules. So I copied the TSR trade dress. I like money as much as the next guy, but the whole idea of marketing things seems really boring - that never entered the equation. In the final analysis, I'm making ASE for myself first, and if other people like it, that's a bonus.

When I buy OSR product, it's largely based on reviews, trade dress doesn't enter into the decision at all. There's plenty of crap out there with yellow stripes on the corner.

[Vile]

While I like the trade dress for the nostalgia factor, I'm not wedded to it and I see nothing wrong with people exploring other avenues. But brand recognition is nothing to be sneezed at, whether you're selling your product or giving it away - everyone wants an audience (the right audience) for their material, otherwise they wouldn't make it available to others.

[Wheggi]

I've noticed that publishers consistently try to emulate the look of the products TSR published in its heyday. Most do this by mimicking the layout of the module covers with the yellow band in the upper left corner

Nostalgia! When I was a kid, I thought working for TSR and writing modules would be the coolest thing ever.

You and I, Pat! And while I realize that you used the TSR format, the thing that jumps out about your product is that you have morlocks and juggalos and a big damn T-Rex on the cover! That automatically set you apart from the pack, and I'm happy to say that you delivered on the promise of the cover.

- Wheggi

[AxeMental]

The guys inclined to writing new stuff quickly learned that their target audience - the guys with money to burn and who enjoyed D&D as kids - had morphed from progressive-thinking college guys to settled middle-aged men set in their ways and their memories. These guys don't want new and exciting: they want to buy what they remember buying during the heyday. Guys wishing to sell modules for profit therefore give them what they want, recycling the same look and adventure concepts over and over again to satiate the collectors. In no way does this expand the hobby, either within the already established fan community or beyond its borders.

Well stated. Its sad, but the reliable buyers are an odd lot of collectors (who likely never play them), fans of well known online personalities (who I guess wish them good will), and tribe mentality (supporting one take of the game). That said, I like to believe a market for new 1E material exists.

Of the over a dozen 1E players I've met in the "real world" in the past few years (by chance mostly), none of them, when I asked, have heard of DF, K&K or OSRIC (and they claim to go online, don't know how they miss it). If we could ever figure out how to reach these folks (they've gotta number in the thousands, maybe more), I think the hobby could be grown in a healthy way. The problem is no one that plays 1E really telegraphs it, and perhaps never thought to order modules online (or are just happy with home brewed stuff).
Any game market that has three core books that are indestructible requiring nothing else but a pen and paper is going to be hard to convince (and imagine if they ordered one that had an old school cover but was 2E or 3E inside (ala Goodman) they'd probably say "never again", and who could blame them...fool me once...)

I've always wanted to see S&W or OSRIC in B&N. Maybe one day.


Bill, I'd gladly buy new modules from you (your writing is solid, and your design superb, particularly the first one (the last one was really fun to run as well). I'm sure there are artists on this site who would help out as well (just let us know).

[Wheggi]

If you see a change the only way to make it happen is for you to show how the rest of use are doing it wrong.

Robert had a whole bunch of great points, and I'll admit I had a bit of a grouchy spell inspired by what I perceive to be a glut of crappy modules that shameless play on the name and look of old TSR products just so they can pull in a buck. I had a Snickers bar and feel a little better now lol.

But the quote above is pretty correct: if one wants to criticize they should put up or shut up. I do have a number of adventures that are in various stages of completion but have yet to publish simply because I always find myself tweaking them. Having never published them for mass consumption I guess I don't have the room to criticize, but I can say that my pride would never let me put out much of what I see in the OSR market today.

As for free adventures, I'm all for them. A number of the DF adventures are pretty good.

- Wheggi

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Wheggi's stuff is actually really good.

[deathanddrek]

May I ask Wheggi... did this thread's original post have anything to do with a certain TSR trade dress retroclone module mentioned in your Fantastic Voyage thread?

[deathanddrek]

Suppose I should follow that statement up with a mini-review of it...

- Interesting environment, dungeon-exploration-technique-wise.
- It looks like there might be some good NPC stuff in there...
- ... and some good traps and puzzles...
- but the overall explicit porniness is far too distracting to gauge it well.

[robertsconley]

If you see a change the only way to make it happen is for you to show how the rest of use are doing it wrong.

But the quote above is pretty correct: if one wants to criticize they should put up or shut up. I do have a number of adventures that are in various stages of completion but have yet to publish simply because I always find myself tweaking them. Having never published them for mass consumption I guess I don't have the room to criticize, but I can say that my pride would never let me put out much of what I see in the OSR market today.

Looking forward to seeing what you put out.

I guess I don't have the room to criticize

I recommended that you get your stuff out there because I been on this board I while and I know you have stuff of your own. And your criticism of the type that for some leads to publishing. I know laid into your post pretty hard, but I do think critics are important. Bryce Lynch over on Ten Foot Pole is in my opinion an excellent critic. http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/. It not that he criticizes (and occasionally praises) he EXPLAINS why sometimes in great deal.

But here the thing, Bryce is an excellent critic but he is just one point of view. He gave me an excellent review of Scourge but I also know there are other people that went meh. And that where somebody like you. You have the knowledge and experience to do what Bryce does but more importantly you have a different point of view then he. So in addition to publishing you may consider starting a blog or using the review forum here (or Dragonsfoot).

Robert had a whole bunch of great points, and I'll admit I had a bit of a grouchy spell inspired by what I perceive to be a glut of crappy modules that shameless play on the name and look of old TSR products just so they can pull in a buck. I had a Snickers bar and feel a little better now lol.

, and Put up or shut up applies to me as well, an important part of the spirit of the OSR is that its particpants help one another. So if you need any help on the technical aspect of layout, print on demand, etc drop me a PM and I will give you my email. We can go from there. When you release, let me know and I will give a shout out on my blog.

Having never published them for mass consumption

With today's technology the process is a lot more straight forward. It is definitely involves some work and you have to do somethings in a particular way.

[Wheggi]

May I ask Wheggi... did this thread's original post have anything to do with a certain TSR trade dress retroclone module mentioned in your Fantastic Voyage thread?

Nope, this was brought on by an adventure I saw that was blatantly exploiting images and terminology that would lead the consumer to believe that the product was directly related to earlier TSR products.

EDIT: it also had a bit to do with the fact that I'm currently earning my degree in graphic design, and I started thinking about why I would ever want to copy someone else's layout when this is what I'm pursuing as a career.

- Wheggi

[Wheggi]

I recommended that you get your stuff out there because I been on this board I while and I know you have stuff of your own. And your criticism of the type that for some leads to publishing. I know laid into your post pretty hard, but I do think critics are important. Bryce Lynch over on Ten Foot Pole is in my opinion an excellent critic. http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/. It not that he criticizes (and occasionally praises) he EXPLAINS why sometimes in great deal.

But here the thing, Bryce is an excellent critic but he is just one point of view. He gave me an excellent review of Scourge but I also know there are other people that went meh. And that where somebody like you. You have the knowledge and experience to do what Bryce does but more importantly you have a different point of view then he. So in addition to publishing you may consider starting a blog or using the review forum here (or Dragonsfoot).

No worries Robert: I didn't think you laid into the post all that hard.

I've read Bryce Lynch's reviews before. He does explain what he likes and doesn't but ultimately it is more personal taste than anything else. I couldn't imagine myself ever becoming a critic with a blog, and definitely not one over at DF!

I guess I should come clean and admit that I did have a small adventure of mine published in a magazine many years ago. Originally part of a megadungeon level, I had modified it to be a stand alone. I wouldn't put that adventure out today - too railroad-y, to linear and embarrassingly influenced by an M. Night Shyamalan-style twist - but at the time it was pretty well-received and it won me some cool Otherworld Miniatures bugbears, so I really can't knock it.

I appreciate the offer of assistance,, Robert! And if I do choose to put this stuff out there I'll be sure to let you know.

- Wheggi

[Matthew]

When this subject comes up, I always remember the response of a friend of mine on showing him Advanced Adventures #1-4 by Expeditious Retreat: "Those covers are shit". This coming from a guy the same age as me and who loved AD&D, and truth to tell I did not think he was particularly wrong (no offence to those involved). The "old school" aesthetic is definitely about sending a signal and self identifying as such. Back in the days of D20/3E when I was not tuned into "old school", the sort of cover that really blew me away was the Frazetta on the front of the Wilderlands of High Fantasy:



Not enough to buy at the time (way too pricey), but I definitely picked it up as a mater of priority when D20/4E caused prices to crash!

[Wheggi]

Matthew, I think one of the issues is that the style of many gaming publications remind old gamers of the newer systems, and that goes directly against what they are looking for. The animosity factor plays a big role, and any style cover that deviates from the TSR model will need to have no semblance to newer games whatsoever if it wishes to be accepted by AD&D fans.

- Wheggi

[Matthew]

I totally agree with you, but I think Frazetta has enough old school credibility that something like that could appeal. Not that I am recommending anybody take the risk, but something similar to the current crop of Savage Sword of Conan collected volumes or similar comic books strikes me as potentially appealing to audiences new and old.