Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I've only backed projects where I know the author personally and trust him (Ghul, Mythmere, Barsh) or the project is by a reputable, established company (Otherworld Minis). Internet Personality is not sufficient. Nothing about Dwimmermount changes that strategy.

OMG!WTF!SOB!IGAB!DDS!WTP!

TRP wrote:Does anyone know if JMal is still writing for WoTC? If so, it's funny that he can muster the mental competence for that task. I assume it's a paid gig?

I doubt it. If WotC is still publishing articles under his byline they're presumably things that were submitted months ago. Based on his previous MO (with GURPS:Traveller and with his "new school" freelancing gigs for White Wolf, etc. - as I described here) I imagine he's mentally washed his hands of D&D altogether and really wants nothing more to do with it at all, but his ability to make a clean break has been hampered by the KS money and obligation.

Matthew wrote:So far I have backed three projects:

Reaper Miniatures: Bones
Red Box Games: Troll Cast
OtherWorld Miniatures: Dungeon Adventurers

So far no delays on the first, and some slight delay on the third, but we are talking only a week or two before packages started going out. The second has been a disaster, in that the items were estimated to ship in November and have been dribbling out ever since December, though it looks like all will be fulfilled in the next month or so. It does make me think twice about backing future projects by that company, but I think the quality of the product will always make it a contender.

I'm glad to see its perceived as a company problem rather then something broadly attributed to KS. In other words, your still likely to back KS projects from relative unknowns if they seem serious and present a good product (a few bad apples haven't spoiled the barrel, at least for you).

AxeMental wrote:
I'm glad to see its perceived as a company problem rather then something broadly attributed to KS. In other words, your still likely to back KS projects from no names if they seem serious and present a good product (a few bad apples haven't spoiled the barrel).

I really don't get how you could blame Kickstarter.
eBay has bad sellers. Craigslist has bad sellers. Etc...
Caveat Emptor.

DungeonDork wrote:

AxeMental wrote:
I'm glad to see its perceived as a company problem rather then something broadly attributed to KS. In other words, your still likely to back KS projects from no names if they seem serious and present a good product (a few bad apples haven't spoiled the barrel).

I really don't get how you could blame Kickstarter.
eBay has bad sellers. Craigslist has bad sellers. Etc...
Caveat Emptor.

I think AxeMental is referring to Autarch as the "company" that has the problem...not KS.

DungeonDork wrote:

AxeMental wrote:
I'm glad to see its perceived as a company problem rather then something broadly attributed to KS. In other words, your still likely to back KS projects from no names if they seem serious and present a good product (a few bad apples haven't spoiled the barrel).

I really don't get how you could blame Kickstarter.
eBay has bad sellers. Craigslist has bad sellers. Etc...
Caveat Emptor.

I don't blame Kickstarter at all, and didn't mean to give that impression (as you stated in an earlier post they are smart to limit liability for them). I actually love the platform, and think its a fantastic concept. I'm simply trying to gauge if Dwimmermount has had an overall dampening effect on the interest in KS projects that relate to D&D style gaming. I'd hate to see crowd sourcing (and KS in particular) become a fad due to a few abuses or miss-haps. And I'm glad the few investors here don't seem to have that attitude.
It would seem reasonable for KS to require a company to show proof that they have spent collected money if they bail on the project (even in working wages, office supplies etc.). In other words, I think anyone could put out a dummy project with a video, raise a bunch of capital and then split with no intention of doing any work, simply living off it (I'm sure James didn't do that, and I feel sorry for him). But come on, with KS you could raise 1 Million from a bunch of $100 investors and walk away with it scott free. Just seems like KS should have some way of protecting those well meaning investors. But, hey I guess its their company, their business.

PS the reason I'm so interested in this is that I'm thinking of using KS to raise capital and am interested in how those burnt by one company feel about it (ie. does it make KS projects in general look bad...I don't want one persons stink to rub off on me just because I use the KS platform). From what I can tell, at least here, thats not the case (which is what I was hoping I'd find). But like you say Dungeon Dork, -let the buyer beware.

PS PS I do think James should either transfer the project to someone else or give back unspent money (and I assume thats just whats in the works on his end). That would be the smart thing to do.

AxeMental wrote: In other words, I think anyone could put out a dummy project with a video, raise a bunch of capital and then split with no intention of doing any work, simply living off it (I'm sure James didn't do that, and I feel sorry for him). But come on, with KS you could raise 1 Million from a bunch of $100 investors and walk away with it scott free. Just seems like KS should have some way of protecting those well meaning investors. But, hey I guess its their company, their business.

People need to protect themselves as well. Every method of communication that has ever been known has been used to rip people off. You don't hold google accountable if you're stupid enough to send a money order to the last living heir of the deposed prime minister of never-never-land so he can free up one million euros in his account and transfer it to you just because they let him open a free email account, do you? The best you can hope for is that they cancel his account.

DungeonDork wrote:

AxeMental wrote: In other words, I think anyone could put out a dummy project with a video, raise a bunch of capital and then split with no intention of doing any work, simply living off it (I'm sure James didn't do that, and I feel sorry for him). But come on, with KS you could raise 1 Million from a bunch of $100 investors and walk away with it scott free. Just seems like KS should have some way of protecting those well meaning investors. But, hey I guess its their company, their business.

People need to protect themselves as well. Every method of communication that has ever been known has been used to rip people off. You don't hold google accountable if you're stupid enough to send a money order to the last living heir of the deposed prime minister of never-never-land so he can free up one million euros in his account and transfer it to you just because they let him open a free email account, do you? The best you can hope for is that they cancel his account.

Well, as usual, I can't argue with your points Dork. Its a fledgling funding source, I suppose we'll just have to wait to see what happens. Honestly though, it seems to blow away the standard method of creating the product first (going into debt) and then seeing if it sells, or worse, making the product as sales come in.

AxeMental wrote: Well, as usual, I can't argue with your points Dork. Its a fledgling funding source, I suppose we'll just have to wait to see what happens. Honestly though, it seems to blow away the standard method of creating the product first (going into debt) and then seeing if it sells, or worse, making the product as sales come in.

To me it's just venture capitalism. Except now you don't have to go door to door with your hat in your hand making the same presentation in person over and over again.
Instead of finding five or six investors to put down thousands of dollars, you find thousands of investors to put down five or six dollars. Same result for you, less of a risk for them, hopefully everyone is happy.
A better model may emerge at some point and if it does, Kickstarter will fall by the wayside.
It may not be perfect but it's better than what came before and and it's the best we have right now.

Agreed.

DungeonDork wrote: People need to protect themselves as well.

I limited my exposure on this to $10. Of course, even that amount of risk was based on the notion that more of the project was already complete, and simply needed art and layout, followed by revisions for continuity, etc....

Had I known it's status at the time, I wouldn't have ponied up that much, because, as has been said, Interwwwebz celebrity isn't a draw to me.

In my opinion Dwimmermount was a candidate for print-on-demand at best.

I had no interest in Dwimmermount, so I didn't participate in the Kickstarter, but the project's cratering doesn't affect my opinion of Kickstarter at all, and doesn't make me more or less likely to participate in other Kickstarter projects. I think Kickstarter is a cool model for raising capital for a product or project; I'd base my decision on the individual product/project/company/people that are involved.

I backed Dwimmermount reasonably high, the map drew me in! But it certainly is buyer beware and if I get burnt it is a pity but I am not going to go broke because of it. Like the stock market only invest as much as you can afford to lose.

That said I have kept abreast of all the announcements and a lot of threads on RPG fora. The general feeling seems to be that:
a) It is not kickstarter's fault, tho people may be more careful in choosing what project to pledge on. The most common being that they won't back anything that is not complete or very nearly so.
b) Autarch (who ran the KS as they are US, but JMal kept money and IP) were naive in their business dealings but have done everything in their power to make it right. A lot of people have said they will back Autarch again, even those that didn't back Dwimmer, because of the transparency and effort Tavis et al is putting in. Obviously some have said to Autarch, never again but most positive towards them.
c) JMal rates from someone who needs pity to someone who is a thief. He may get some respect back if he has not blown the cash and allows Autarch to get the rewards out, but as his last post on G+ says he is leaving the internet around Easter it doesn't really matter.

These are what I have drawn from hundreds of pages of fora posts.

It will not stop me from investing in KS, I am happy where my other projects are and always took any timelines with a massive pinch of salt.

It seems that the possibility of legal action by Autarch combine with Autarch clearly spelling out ways JMal can get out of this has prompted his most recent post (which smacks to me of drama queen, announcing on G+ you are going to disconnect yourself with those who only care about you as a writer not a person). I hope that the IP and, most especially, the money are transferred post haste to Autarch and we actually see some progress

As an aside I have a physical copy of Dwimmermount in my Lulu cart, well Devilmount which is Dwimmermount taken from the draft and gonzo'd a bit